Speed vs. Endurance: All of History’s Fastest Men in Order, Including Your Precious Donny Braz

Love this analysis and love this thread potential. I have nothing to add!!

Ah, where would you place Juantorena and Snell?

nzkenbg wrote:

Ah, where would you place Juantorena and Snell?

I’m inclined to place Juantorena at the very top, as the most speed oriented. I’d likely round his “ideal distance” to 600m, though both he and Korir may actually be on the short side of that.

Juantorena: 44.26/1:43.4

Korir: 44.21/1:42.05

And of course, Juantorena won Olympic 400m gold, while none of these other men have made an Olympic 400 final.

As for Snell, I’m having a hard time deciding on which side of Seb Coe I would place him, but it would be right there in that 1000m range. I think he was a bit better suited to the 800 than the 1500.

You list El Guerrouj's best event as the 2000. But according to the IAAF scoring tables, his best event is the 1500 where he scores 1302 points. His 2000 time scores him 1290 points, just slightly worse than his mile which is 1292 points.

I would move Souleiman higher, he ran a solid tactical 5k and looked to be more like 13:05 shape not long before his 800 PR although we all know where that extra endurance came from

SlowFatMaster wrote:

https://worldathletics.org/athletes/morocco/hicham-el-guerrouj-14212038

You list El Guerrouj's best event as the 2000. But according to the IAAF scoring tables, his best event is the 1500 where he scores 1302 points. His 2000 time scores him 1290 points, just slightly worse than his mile which is 1292 points.

- From ‘96 to ‘04, he ran in (and won most of) 64 1500m finals, 18 mile finals, and only 3 2000m races, which might have something to do with his 2k world’s best being “inferior” to his fastest 1500.

-When he broke Morceli’s WR he lowered it by 2.91 seconds, compared with being 1.37” faster over 1500 and 1.26” faster over the mile. To this day he is 2.09” faster at 2k than the 2nd fastest man, busted drug cheat Ali Saidi-Sief.

-From ‘98 through his retirement he never lost a race, indoors or out, from 1 mile to 2 miles—but he did lose on key occasions over 1500 during that time, namely to Ngeny and Lagat

-Let’s not forget, El G is a 5k Olympic champion and the second fastest 3k runner in history. His times, credentials, and his inclination toward distances over 1500 far, far outclass anything he did at shorter distances

I’m sticking with 2,000m.

Hardloper wrote:

I would move Souleiman higher, he ran a solid tactical 5k and looked to be more like 13:05 shape not long before his 800 PR although we all know where that extra endurance came from

He certainly has solid range. Where would you put him exactly? 1500mish?

My logic behind placing him where I did was that his PBs at 800 and 1500/mile are practically equivalent, 800 is actually where he found his finest achievement (WC bronze medal), he’s the indoor 1000m WR-holder (2:14.20), and he looked rather at home running 2:13.49 to become #5 AT:

Having said that, I do want to switch him with Makhloufi, and could easily see him belonging more in the 1400m range.

John Wesley Harding wrote: 800 is actually where he found his finest achievement (WC bronze medal)

I guess his World Indoors 1500 gold makes that debatable, but I’d rather have an outdoor bronze.

This is an A+ thread

I’m surprised you’d put Kiplimo at 10k. He has certainly had success at the half but considering he outkicked Jakob in the 3k and Barega in the 5k last year I’d put him more speed oriented. I think his sweet spot is around 7k just like Barega.

Probably one of the best runners not included (I understand as he did not qualify) is Stephen Cherono aka Shaheen. I would imagine his sweet spot may have been around 4000m. Nonetheless a tremendous talent to not make it.

where would you put ideal distance for a guy like nick symmonds?

i feel like his 47 is reallllllly slow for a 1:42 guy, but i don't see any reason to believe the 800 isn't his best distance. maybe 900?

All good, but maybe not Barega

What are his best over distance times? Surely not as good as his 3:32. I reckon he’s closer to 5k flat.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

nzkenbg wrote:

Ah, where would you place Juantorena and Snell?

I’m inclined to place Juantorena at the very top, as the most speed oriented. I’d likely round his “ideal distance” to 600m, though both he and Korir may actually be on the short side of that.

Juantorena: 44.26/1:43.4

Korir: 44.21/1:42.05

And of course, Juantorena won Olympic 400m gold, while none of these other men have made an Olympic 400 final.

As for Snell, I’m having a hard time deciding on which side of Seb Coe I would place him, but it would be right there in that 1000m range. I think he was a bit better suited to the 800 than the 1500.

Juantorena would be ~500m. His 400m time is quite a lot better than his 800m.

Brazier may be 700m he has the indoor record for 600m which is arguably better than his 800m.

I think this kind of remains to be seen, but while 7:26.64 and 12:48.63 are phenomenal, I think this guy may have been capable of sub-26:20 for 10,000m last year, which is even better.

-His wins over Barega and Ingebrigtsen were less about having a killer last K/400/100 and more about outlasting his opponent in a time-trial scenario and superior execution of pacing and tactics

-His 10,000 track PB is an outdated 27:26 from 2016, when he was still 15 years old—27:26 at 15 shows some natural aptitude. At 18, he ran 26:41 to set a CR at the San Silvestre 10k in Spain, a race that’s been won by Kipchoge and Tadese among other greats

-2nd place between Cheptegei and Kamworor and 32 seconds clear of Barega in 5th at the 2019 World XC Championships on the hilly 10k course in Aarhus

-In his first two half marathons he won the World Championship over a stiff field, and then challenged for the WR only to place 2nd in an absurd 57:37, beating 26:24 10k man Rhonex Kipruto

I doubt he’ll ever run faster than 7:24 for 3k (I know, still remarkable) and any success he’ll have at that distance will be due to incredible aerobic fitness, but I’ll try to remember to bump this thread when he sets the 10,000m world record.

Perhaps he is a true 5k man, as that 12:43.02 win in ‘18 stands out as a career highlight. You have to be mighty strong to stalk Kejelcha so confidently at that pace and then drop the hammer. His 26:49 10,000m is in fact stronger than 3:32.97 (1243 points vs. 1203 points on the IAAF scoring tables, #26 all-time vs. #150 all-time). Also, for a runner of his caliber I’d like to see a faster 3k than 7:32 in order to assume he maxes out his potential at 5k.

I’d be willing to settle for 6k if it means getting you into a new opinion today.

In this strange, lumbering thread I had Shaheen 14th all-time at 4k with a 10:07 PB:

Can you imagine how much marijuana went into the making of that thread?

I agree with you that 4k is as good a guess as any. It’s a small shame he never ran faster than 7:32 for 3k, when you’ve got to think he had a ~7:26 in him.

Given the way he ran the 800m (hanging back early and coming through late) and his 3:34 1500 PB, I think it’s fair to say Symmonds was a strength-based 800 runner. 1:42.95 and a global outdoor silver is no joke though, so I’m right there with you, willing to gamble on 900 but not sure it could actually get any better for him.

AerobicMonster wrote:

John Wesley Harding wrote:

I’m inclined to place Juantorena at the very top, as the most speed oriented. I’d likely round his “ideal distance” to 600m, though both he and Korir may actually be on the short side of that.

Juantorena: 44.26/1:43.4

Korir: 44.21/1:42.05

And of course, Juantorena won Olympic 400m gold, while none of these other men have made an Olympic 400 final.

As for Snell, I’m having a hard time deciding on which side of Seb Coe I would place him, but it would be right there in that 1000m range. I think he was a bit better suited to the 800 than the 1500.

Juantorena would be ~500m. His 400m time is quite a lot better than his 800m.

I think you’re right.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

AerobicMonster wrote:

Juantorena would be ~500m. His 400m time is quite a lot better than his 800m.

I think you’re right.

How do you both work that out? His 400m pb is 1.23 seconds off the current world record, and his 800m pb is 2.53 off the current world record. Doesn't seem a great difference to me.

If you're comparing times in his era, at the end of 77 he had 3 of the 4 fastest 800m times in history.

Not to mention he had only ran his first 800m a few weeks before Montreal where he ran 1:43.5 in an Olympic final, and I believe began having problems with his feet soon after, so we perhaps never really got to see his true potential at 800m. He certainly didn't have many time trials at 800m.