Let’s say these two were transported from the duel in the sun to the marathon project what do you think they would have ran
I’d say 2:06:50 range with the new shoes etc
Let’s say these two were transported from the duel in the sun to the marathon project what do you think they would have ran
I’d say 2:06:50 range with the new shoes etc
I’d go with a high 2:07. His 2:08:33 short course at New York was probably his most impressive marathon. A few 2:09’s to his name. In good weather on perfectly fast course I’d give him 2:07:45. Shoes are not nearly as impacting as many people think. A second or two per mile would be a lot, still putting him at a 2:07
Shoes do make a huge difference. Get real.
Too many average runners now running 2:18-2:25 in marathon but who were no good in college. I am happy for them but these guys had average college performances without the shoes.
Its hilarious to think the new shoes dont make a difference.
cramister wrote:
Let’s say these two were transported from the duel in the sun to the marathon project what do you think they would have ran
They would have ran "Duel in the Desert".
ba-da-boom!
probably high 2:07 wrote:
I’d go with a high 2:07. His 2:08:33 short course at New York was probably his most impressive marathon. A few 2:09’s to his name. In good weather on perfectly fast course I’d give him 2:07:45. Shoes are not nearly as impacting as many people think. A second or two per mile would be a lot, still putting him at a 2:07
That's BS on the short course New York talk. Alberto didn't come remotely close to cutting the tangents even if the measured course was slightly short being measured from the tangents.
He did it alone from 17 miles on and should be given consideration as the video from the race doesn't lie.
Love him or hate him, his 2:08:13 should count, not the 2:08:40 they gave him. I love Bill Rodgers and Grete, but why did their race times count years earlier (has nothing to do with them not setting world records)?
p.s. Nothing against Mr. Katz, he's a great guy!
yes they are wrote:
Its hilarious to think the new shoes dont make a difference.
They don't make the same difference for every runner. It comes down to how well a runner's weight and mechanics are tuned to the spring frequency of the shoe, if the runner is loading them for a trampoline effect. Salazar was a shuffler, and may not have gotten the same performance benefit as someone like D'Amato.
The shoes are the difference maker for most. Look at the crazy increase number of runners breaking any benchmark: 2:10, 2:20, 2:30, 3:00, etc. in every major marathon over the last few years. Bottom line: way more people are running fast. Those who don't respond to the benefits are a relatively small number. Based on the numbers it's likely Alberto and Beardsley would have benefitted. Best guess 207:XX.
a couple minutes wrote:
The shoes are the difference maker for most. Look at the crazy increase number of runners breaking any benchmark: 2:10, 2:20, 2:30, 3:00, etc. in every major marathon over the last few years. Bottom line: way more people are running fast. .
That's wrong. Far more ran under 2:15, 2:20, 2:30, 3:00 back in the 70s and 80s than have done it in any year since then.
2:06:59 and 2:07:03.
I say at least a 2:04 something if they had a pacer through 20+ miles and carbon fiber plated shoes -- where Rupp would be if he had a perfect day. You guys are discounting the benefit that these guys probably would have been psychologically geared to be faster based on the pace of history. In other words, guys like Salazar, Rodgers, Shorter, Hill, Drayton, Hill, Jones, DeCastella, Lopes, et al., would have all run faster if they ran today.
The "Duel" happened in the middle of 9 month period where Salazar ran the disputed 2:08:13, came in second at World Cross, and set American records at both 5k and 10k (with a bunch of other races mixed in, including an indoor season and the race against Rono the week before Boston). This all happened before his 24th birthday. He was that good.
Beardsley was also a beast.
I would have liked to see prime Steve Jones in that race. Ignoring the pacers and taking it out from the gun.
cramister wrote:
Let’s say these two were transported from the duel in the sun to the marathon project what do you think they would have ran
I’d say 2:06:50 range with the new shoes etc
They would have thought it would be a stupid idea to run on some strip mall roads in the middle of the desert.
Impossible to compare different runners from different decades.
That's why we race. To find out who is best on a certain day and certain course. Everything else is just BS talk.
Treacle Runner wrote:
I would have liked to see prime Steve Jones in that race. Ignoring the pacers and taking it out from the gun.
I',m not sure about Beardsley but I'd say Salazar could run 2:04-2:05 in the new shoes assumign he's a responder. If he's not a responder, I think he's a 2:06-2:07 guy.
Think about it this way. Salazar was basically Ryan Hall in terms of track pbs. He ran 13:19 in college and 13:11 after. Hall ran 13:16 in college. Hehir ran 13:29. Roughly speaking they are 5 seconds a mile better than Hehir which is 2:10 in the marathon.
Hall ran 2:06:17 on a non-aded course. Salazar ran 2:09 in hily New York which is probably 2:07 high 2:08 flat on a flat course and that's without rabbits. With rabbits, Salazar is probably 2:06-2:07 which means he's basically Ryan Hall which make sense.
I mean I think it's kind of obvious that we have a lot of data points indicating 2:06 flat is basically as fast that a non-East African can run in the marathon without drugs or the super shoes.
In addition to Hall's PB being 2:06:17, the Japanese record for a long time was 2:06:16. Add 5 seconds a mile to that (which is basically eh difference in 5k pbs between Hall and Hehir and 2:08:30ish) - which is similar to Hehir's time.
So if Salazar is basically Hall, the question is how much faster would Hall/Salazar run with the new shoes. I'd say 1:30-2:30 faster if they are responders. 2:04-2:05 seems most likely.
Hall ran 2:06:17 in a year that the marathon WR was 2:03:59. So he was 2:18 off the WR. 2:18 off the curerent WR is very close to 2:04 flat - 2:03:37.
rojo wrote:
Treacle Runner wrote:
I would have liked to see prime Steve Jones in that race. Ignoring the pacers and taking it out from the gun.
I',m not sure about Beardsley but I'd say Salazar could run 2:04-2:05 in the new shoes assumign he's a responder. If he's not a responder, I think he's a 2:06-2:07 guy.
Think about it this way. Salazar was basically Ryan Hall in terms of track pbs. He ran 13:19 in college and 13:11 after. Hall ran 13:16 in college. Hehir ran 13:29. Roughly speaking they are 5 seconds a mile better than Hehir which is 2:10 in the marathon.
Hall ran 2:06:17 on a non-aded course. Salazar ran 2:09 in hily New York which is probably 2:07 high 2:08 flat on a flat course and that's without rabbits. With rabbits, Salazar is probably 2:06-2:07 which means he's basically Ryan Hall which make sense.
I mean I think it's kind of obvious that we have a lot of data points indicating 2:06 flat is basically as fast that a non-East African can run in the marathon without drugs or the super shoes.
In addition to Hall's PB being 2:06:17, the Japanese record for a long time was 2:06:16. Add 5 seconds a mile to that (which is basically eh difference in 5k pbs between Hall and Hehir and 2:08:30ish) - which is similar to Hehir's time.
So if Salazar is basically Hall, the question is how much faster would Hall/Salazar run with the new shoes. I'd say 1:30-2:30 faster if they are responders. 2:04-2:05 seems most likely.
Hall ran 2:06:17 in a year that the marathon WR was 2:03:59. So he was 2:18 off the WR. 2:18 off the curerent WR is very close to 2:04 flat - 2:03:37.
Abdi "black ? " comes to mind. Yeah the guy last Feb qualified for Olympic Marathon he like Salazar is clearly a shuffler just one of many to benefit from the new tech.
If Hall from NY Olympic 08' trials then 2:04:30. If Salazar from 2:08 NY 2:04.
Steve Jones would probably not have been invited to such a programmed event. He would have been in a break away from the first mile. He would not have put up with the early pedestrian pace. I'm guessing he would have run 2:05-2:06. Had there been a top African contingent competing..2:04-2:05.
rojo wrote:
So if Salazar is basically Hall, the question is how much faster would Hall/Salazar run with the new shoes. I'd say 1:30-2:30 faster if they are responders. 2:04-2:05 seems most likely.
.
This is something I find annoying about the new shoes when comparing to previous eras. The "IF" they are responders. I think that people will generally be given the benefit of the doubt as if they would've been, but we will never know. Someone above suggested that Salazar wouldn't since he had more of a shuffle in his stride. Here Rojos who statement goes on the assumption that he would've been. On the other hand, what if Salazar wouldn't have been a responder and he raced people that were in the new shoes? He probably wouldn't have won the races he did or placed as highly in others and maybe he never becomes the coach he was without the same race success.
Again we will never know.
rhojo wrote:
This is something I find annoying about the new shoes when comparing to previous eras. The "IF" they are responders. I think that people will generally be given the benefit of the doubt as if they would've been, but we will never know. Someone above suggested that Salazar wouldn't since he had more of a shuffle in his stride. Here Rojos who statement goes on the assumption that he would've been. On the other hand, what if Salazar wouldn't have been a responder and he raced people that were in the new shoes? He probably wouldn't have won the races he did or placed as highly in others and maybe he never becomes the coach he was without the same race success.
Again we will never know.
But we can be pretty damn sure that Rupp is a responder or Nike wouldn't have gone through with the shoes. Seriously, imagien if in testing, they'd found out that Rupp didn't respond at all to the shoes but all of Jerry's guys did. You think we'd have them on the market?
What I really hate about this besides that is now we have them on the roads but not the track. That makes zero sense.
Salazar- 2:05-2:06
Beardsley - 2:06
Bouncing down the road... boing boing
The Duel in the Sun, I read the book. Highly recommended. Reportedly, Alberto did not drink during this race. I just don't get this. Is it really true, and what was he thinking? If he had taken on fluids I'd think he would have knocked another 30 seconds off his time and won by a greater margin.
Another odd thing about some races in the past, the spectators are on the course crowding the runners. Weird.
Check out the video of the Ryun/Liquori mile showdown in 1971, where Marty nipped Ryun by .2, there are spectators all over the track. Insane. Get the heck out of the way morons!