Whats my Aerobic Pace? VDOT and HR pace differ wildly

HR is not a good thing to base training upon.

Don't worry about heart rate Jack Daniels. Your vo2max tells me that you run a 5:30? I just ran a 4:33 today and do my off days at 6:30 pace, but I'm a miler so I only do 3 miles.

Based on your vo2max mile time, you would run at 7:30 pace for the same run as me with the same effort. However, you are training for the 5k as alluded to in your post. That means you are likely doing 9 miles and would have to go wayy slower. So you should probably do your runs at 9:00 pace.

I know that sounds slow, but I think what you should do is run a few miles at 8:15 pace or so and take a break, so that your heart rate can lower. Interval running. You can throw in an extra mile our two since you are taking breaks. You're welcome!

Heart rate is an excellent parameter to base paces off of, since it can account for varied terrain and environmental conditions. However, caffeine use can potentially skew it. YMMV on this point.

You say "I'd have to run 9:00 pace to keep at 140 BPM." Yet you claim to have current 17:55 (i.e., VDOT 56.6) fitness. I think your numbers are not lining up. Your HR measurement is likely not accurate, or you are very aerobically under-developed.

hf measurement wrote:

You say "I'd have to run 9:00 pace to keep at 140 BPM." Yet you claim to have current 17:55 (i.e., VDOT 56.6) fitness. I think your numbers are not lining up. Your HR measurement is likely not accurate, or you are very aerobically under-developed.

I use an Apple Watch. Whenever I check it manually or through sensors on a treadmill, it’s spot on.

I ran 17:55 after 5 months of running, three times a week and only 1-2 “aerobic” runs a week. I also lost 30lbs in those 5 months. 10 days before the 5k TT I did a 5:07 mile TT.

I will say that after hard runs, my heart is beating harder than I ever remember it used to 14 years ago.

Here is the guide:

Aerobic maintenance & recovery:..........1.33 x 5k pace = 74% HRmax

Marathon Pace:.....................................1.15 x 5k pace = 85% HRmax

Half Marathon Pace:..............................1.11 x 5k pace = 88% HRmax

Lactate Threshold:.................................1.08 x 5k pace = 91% HRmax

hf measurement wrote:

Here is the guide:

Aerobic maintenance & recovery:..........1.33 x 5k pace = 74% HRmax

Marathon Pace:.....................................1.15 x 5k pace = 85% HRmax

Half Marathon Pace:..............................1.11 x 5k pace = 88% HRmax

Lactate Threshold:.................................1.08 x 5k pace = 91% HRmax

5k pace = 98% HRmax

Mr. Jack Daniels wrote:

Im 36 and staring back to running after a 14 year layoff. I used to be a 14:15/29:45 5k/10Ker.

My current VDOT is 56.6 and has me running easy run from 7:27-8:13.

However, to be at 70% or less for Max Heart Rate as guidance for my aerobic zone, I have to run at 9:30 pace. I think the problem is that very basic formulas (220-age) dont work for my MHR. I did at 5K TT and the end of my TT my HR was at 194. This makes me think my MHR is more like 200. Even then, I'd have to run 9:00 pace to keep at 140 BPM.

Advice?

You've correctly identified the problem -- "very basic formulas (220-age) dont work".

You should do a real test to push your HR to the max.

(I did a HRmax test with a Polar watch fitness test and it was surprisingly accurate at predicting my HRmax and my VDOT -- this experience is not universal though).

But to avoid the discrepancy, you need to pick one guide: 1) HR -- then you should ignore paces for easy and threshold runs, or 2) VDOT tables, then you should ignore HR.

Sometimes the unfit don't like how slow they run at high heartrates, so they chose their zones with heart-rate reserve (a formula that factors out resting heart rate). As your resting heartrate drops when you get fitter, this becomes closer to the normal formula.

I'm a big fan of heartrate only for the beginner who runs easy like tempo, and tempo like VO2max, as continuous feedback to get them to slow down for these SLOW and MEDIUM effort workouts. Once they've learned that, and then start to get fitter, the heartrate becomes less important.

If you chose VDOT, but find you cannot complete workouts until the end, this is important feedback to relax the pace so that you can complete the workouts.

But given your recent 17:55, running 8:30 to 9:00 pace is probably EASY enough. (But I'm a big fan of advising that easy is an effort rather than pace -- if someone asks me what is my easy pace I say I don't know, I never looked.)

Given your return to running after a layoff, I'd say it is normal for your HR to be high at slower paces, and that this will drop in time, as you get better at running the slower paces with less effort. This requires medium and long term adaptations.

Mr. Jack Daniels wrote:

hf measurement wrote:

You say "I'd have to run 9:00 pace to keep at 140 BPM." Yet you claim to have current 17:55 (i.e., VDOT 56.6) fitness. I think your numbers are not lining up. Your HR measurement is likely not accurate, or you are very aerobically under-developed.

I use an Apple Watch. Whenever I check it manually or through sensors on a treadmill, it’s spot on.

I ran 17:55 after 5 months of running, three times a week and only 1-2 “aerobic” runs a week. I also lost 30lbs in those 5 months. 10 days before the 5k TT I did a 5:07 mile TT.

I will say that after hard runs, my heart is beating harder than I ever remember it used to 14 years ago.

Do you just use wrist based? If so, your numbers are largely nonsense. They can be ok for when at rest but when running wrist-based HR is often way off. I'd suggest using a HR strap and see if it changes first.

Second, it isn't unusual for people first starting out with HR to really have to shuffle slower than think it worth it to keep the HR down. It just means your aerobic system is severely under-developed. If you persevere your pace should fall dramatically in a few weeks for the same HR but you gotta learn to crawl before you can walk.

Run by feel, use the talk test. If you can run and carry on a conversation, you are good to go.

VDOT does not work because it only takes into consideration the VO2max which is a measure of TIME, but all the workouts are structured on the VOLUME, so it can understand that certain workouts with the VDOT are not completed or the last reps are very slow, because it does not take in consideration that the competitions and training are structural on the distance and not on the absolute value of the maximum oxygen consumption.

VDOT takes into account running economy and the fraction of VO2max that is used based on the duration of the race, which make VDOT the ideal determinant of training intensities.

jack daniels himself tells that VDOt use Riegel formula wich is only an average that does not take into account the individual worsening or improvement to the right or to the left as race DISTANCE and its rhythms: intervals, repetitions are unrelated to any VOLUME.

Mr. Jack Daniels wrote:

Im 36 and staring back to running after a 14 year layoff. I used to be a 14:15/29:45 5k/10Ker.

My current VDOT is 56.6 and has me running easy run from 7:27-8:13.

However, to be at 70% or less for Max Heart Rate as guidance for my aerobic zone, I have to run at 9:30 pace. I think the problem is that very basic formulas (220-age) dont work for my MHR. I did at 5K TT and the end of my TT my HR was at 194. This makes me think my MHR is more like 200. Even then, I'd have to run 9:00 pace to keep at 140 BPM.

Advice?

You lack endurance. That's why your paces don't match VDOT.

Your old fitness will come back gradually over hundreds and thousands of miles if you build up gradually.

Hog wrote:

VDOT takes into account running economy and the fraction of VO2max that is used based on the duration of the race, which make VDOT the ideal determinant of training intensities.

But it doesn't take fitness into account, if you really really think about it.

He's just getting back into running having previously been at a high level of fitness. Your blanket values are normalised to generic fitness, i.e. someone who has been training and racing for a long time. Hence VDOT doesn't work for him because he lacks specific endurance at every effort level.

hf measurement wrote:

hf measurement wrote:

Here is the guide:

Aerobic maintenance & recovery:..........1.33 x 5k pace = 74% HRmax

Marathon Pace:.....................................1.15 x 5k pace = 85% HRmax

Half Marathon Pace:..............................1.11 x 5k pace = 88% HRmax

Lactate Threshold:.................................1.08 x 5k pace = 91% HRmax

5k pace = 98% HRmax

I like it. That's about right for me.

brighteyes wrote:

hf measurement wrote:

5k pace = 98% HRmax

I like it. That's about right for me.

Here is some more interesting tidbits:

10k pace = 95%HRmax.

Have you heard of Critical Velocity? Is it not between Lactate Threshold and 10k pace, i.e., 91%-95%HRmax?

Well then, here is a kicker. Are you familiar with the Norwegian 4x4? (If not, you might want to do a search.) So what is the training zone for the Norwegian 4x4? 85-95%HRmax; 4 reps of 4 mins on, with 3min recoveries.

Maybe one better appreciates this nugget if they actually experience it.

hf measurement wrote:

So what is the training zone for the Norwegian 4x4? 85-95%HRmax; 4 reps of 4 mins on, with 3min recoveries.

Note, the group behind that study later emphasized 90-95% (in lieu of 85-95%) for maximum benefit.

You seem to be referencing a lot of quasi - JD training items / terms. Go to their website and ask them what they recommend. They are pretty good at what they do. Otherwise, stop using their terms and ask us your real questions is...

Otherwise... your easy run should be at a talking pace that does not stress your psyche. Then, you save the mental and physical juice to get after it on your hard days.

this just in wrote:

HR is not a good thing to base training upon.

This^