Why did we stop caring about "flattening the curve"?

Cool that we're now opening up the borders to illegal covid carriers even more as we lock down the rest of us. This makes as much sense as the rest of this whole sham.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/11/it_begins_the_biden_border_surge_never_mind_about_the_lockdowns.html

OK I feel like we're having an actual conversation now.

In government, there is rarely any distinction between human resources and other resources such as servers, I apologize for any confusion.

I'm still wondering what, in your opinion, hospitals should have done specifically in preparation for this current widespread spike. I understand you've read very different complaints about shortages in equipment, beds, doctors and nurses. This has made you skeptical as to the actual reason behind they're supposed inability to deal with a pandemic.

My understanding of the shortage of "beds" is that they are talking about beds that can be attended to by doctors and nurses. So, when a hospital declares they have shortage of beds, they are not literally talking about beds. They are talking about the number of beds for which they have sufficient doctors and nurses to care for patients with covid laying in those beds. (In addition to all of the supplies, masks, and gloves, and oxygen etc. needed to keep a personal live in those beds.)

crazycovidiots wrote:

Cool that we're now opening up the borders to illegal covid carriers even more as we lock down the rest of us. This makes as much sense as the rest of this whole sham.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/11/it_begins_the_biden_border_surge_never_mind_about_the_lockdowns.html

I thought Trump was president still??

huh what wrote:

Marksch wrote:

The goal remains the same. Let's have fewer people get sick.

Alternative goal: let’s stop blaring all-caps headlines about infection figures for a virus with a 99.8% survival rate (higher the younger and healthier you are to begin with). Let’s stop wearing silly masks and see our friends and families again. Let’s hold big fun events that make life worth living. Let’s not pretend that 90 year olds dying is an unbearable national tragedy.

Amen brother! Amen! :) (or 400 pounders that ride around the cart at Walmart)

Floridian2 wrote:

OK I feel like we're having an actual conversation now.

I'm still wondering what, in your opinion, hospitals should have done specifically in preparation for this current widespread spike. I understand you've read very different complaints about shortages in equipment, beds, doctors and nurses. This has made you skeptical as to the actual reason behind they're supposed inability to deal with a pandemic.

I don't. I feel like we are going in circles, and now I'm repeating myself. You are still laboring under the flawed analogy you gave, and until you can clear that up internally, you'll think asking me what hospitals should have done is the proper way to start. I'd ask you what YOU think hospitals actually DID do, given the following background facts:

- In March and April, significant and relatively successful efforts were made to "flatten the curve"

- Starting in March and April and continuing since then, huge efforts were made by federal, state and local governments AND private industry (Medtronic, 3M, etc.) to procure supplies, create ramped up supply channels, and distribute massive amounts of money to hospitals (most of which are huge, cash rich profits centers to begin with)

- The flattened curve months (April-September) were intended as a period for hospitals to ramp up for what the majority of credible epidemiologists said was going to be a large "wave" of infections in the fall - hospitals were on notice and had 6-7 months to prepare for events everyone knew was coming on a national scale

- infections start rising in September, as predicted, and yet immediately we have reports of overwhelmed hospitals

- deaths still aren't as high as they were in March and April, and yet cries of "overwhelmed"

Assume they are to be believed about being overwhelmed already (and if they are, there is a real disaster coming), what is it YOU think that they actually have been doing? Because it sure looks like they haven't done jack (which would be consistent with how they have operated for decades).

Alternatively, just come up with better excuses than the ones you have invented thus far which are, as far as I can tell, are a mush of the following: (1) poverty - hospitals are too poor to buy supplies and expand capacity, (2) no one knew this was coming, (3) no one knew when this was coming, (4) it was only predicted to be a very short "wave", (5) hospitals can't be expected to scale up resources for a pandemic.

For some reason I don't understand, you don't want to acknowledge the possibility there is more to this than "supplies". I have repeated several times that the number of nurses and doctors is just as important than equipment and/or supplies. Hospitals did allow some residents to become full-fledged doctors early to fill some of these needed roles. You agreed that "doctors and nurses don't grow on trees". From what I have read, this is the reason hospitals are overwhelmed. Nurses are working double and triple shifts. They are catching Covid themselves and in some cases being asked to work as long as they are not symptomatic. They are being stretched thin and in some cases overwhelmed. I don't see why this is so difficult to grasp.

Locally here in Florida, we had our big surge in the summertime when the northern half of the country enjoyed their reduction in cases. Florida was able to import nurses from other parts of the country. Now we are having another surge in Florida and cannot send nurses elsewhere because we need them here.

By the way, when you say that everyone knew what was coming in terms of a fall surge, that is not what I heard from government political leaders. I heard it'll be over by Easter, magically disappear, etc. etc.

Flatten the curve sounds catchy and easy to show on a graph. It was nothing more than a marketing slogan to get people to go along with shutting down everything. You are kidding yourselves if you think governments plan on getting things back to normal.

Harambe wrote:

crazycovidiots wrote:

Cool that we're now opening up the borders to illegal covid carriers even more as we lock down the rest of us. This makes as much sense as the rest of this whole sham.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/11/it_begins_the_biden_border_surge_never_mind_about_the_lockdowns.html

I thought Trump was president still??

Good point, I'm not thrilled at how he opened up the border like this. Really breaking his campaign promises.

You truly are Ignatius J. Reilly. Keep up the essential work.

Floridian2 wrote:

By the way, when you say that everyone knew what was coming in terms of a fall surge, that is not what I heard from government political leaders. I heard it'll be over by Easter, magically disappear, etc. etc.

Yeah this is my perception.

The feds basically pretended it would disappear for months now are like ":-O, we will continue to ignore it"

BLM!! wrote:

When the pandemic started, the often-stated goal was to flatten the curve of infections as much as possible in order to avoid overwhelming hospitals. I haven't heard anyone say "flatten the curve" in months though. Now, those taking the pandemic seriously seem to have the goal of preventing as many cases as possible until we have widespread vaccine distribution. What prompted the change in strategy? I'm not criticizing either policy, I'm just genuinely curious about the reason for the switch between the two.

Do you remember in the War of Drugs how marijuana was considered a stepping stone to worse things? Think of it that way but in terms of public deceit and control. It is all about roping you into something harder.

Man, there is a lot to unravel here. Here are some thoughts:

- The concept of flattening the curve was to prevent hospitals from having their resources overrun. At first, doctors thought the lowest common denominator was ventilators. We were originally trying to flatten the curve to make sure we had enough ventilators. Ventilators didn't turn out to be helpful for most COVID patients. We are still trying to flatten the curve to keep our ICUs from overfilling and exposing our lack of hospital beds and staff.

- Hospitals and doctors were never in a position to prepare for a pandemic. That is not what they do. They treat sick people and give us advice on how to stay healthy.

- Hospitals were hurt by the pandemic. Grocery stores make big profit margins on items like deli meats and cheeses and prepared foods, but barely break even on commodities like milk. Hospitals make the majority of their money on elective outpatient surgery and imaging. Elective surgeries went to zero during the spring and hospitals hemorrhaged money and took on big losses. They could barely afford to keep the staff they had, let alone staff up or buy additional supplies.

- One million people got on airplanes yesterday in the US to travel for the holiday. This is 48% of the people that did so the Sunday before Thanksgiving 2019. Definitely a reduction, but way too many people moving around since over half of the virus transmission is now asymptomatic. This is certainly going to get bad.

- Natural herd immunity was never a goal. For this to take place, many millions of Americans would need to die.

- It is pretty simple. To stop the spread and deaths before the vaccine arrives: Wear a mask at all times out side the home. Do not mix with people outside your immediate family/bubble. Don't eat in public (or do activities that require removing the mask). Stay home except for essential travel.

What is most surprising to me during this crisis is that our society has shown a remarkable lack of creativity and flexibility. There are many ways to stay active, conduct business, communicate and live your life in this environment. No, it isn't exactly the way we used to do things, but if we get creative, follow the rules and band together, we can change our practices in the short term and beat this. If everyone whines that they can't get what they always get, can't go to the parties and concerts and restaurants and vacations they always did, and don't follow the rules, we won't beat this. As a consequence, a huge number of people will die, and many more will get COVID, recover and may suffer long term consequences that we don't yet understand. Keep in mind, nobody yet knows what long term health impacts a recovered 12 year old, 25 year old or 50 year old may deal with the rest of their lives. Wear a mask. Stay home. The vaccine will be here soon. Let's all keep each other safe in the meantime.

Peace.

^This.

Do people really have to die so you can breathe all over your friends and family? Is that really necessary?!?!

When the virus first hit, we were flying blind. The CDC tried to come up with its own test instead of using the one the Chinese and WHO had. The CDC test got contaminated and did not work. When the problem was finally overcome, we were well into a major outbreak. We did not have the option to test, trace and isolate the way they did in S. Korea because we did not have enough tests and were way too late in many parts of the country. So, the main strategy was to shut down whenever the virus was detected in community spread. That was the flatten the curve strategy. It was not just about keeping hospitals from overflowing. It was also about buying time until testing resources could catch up to demand. But most importantly, it was just a temporary measure to get control over the virus and have the ability to get to a "Plan B". It was never a means to an end. It was an emergency measure to limit the damage from a major outbreak.

So if every other business makes adjustments what were the hospitals doing over the summer knowing a "second wave was coming". If hospitals couldn't prepare for a pandemic when the curve was flattened to give them time to do so. Why didn't they? What is this really about? You all just want to make backhanded comments about people ignoring your random rules and advice it seems to me.

Floridian3 wrote:

Do people really have to die so you can breathe all over your friends and family? Is that really necessary?!?!

Like this fella.

And I haven't disagreed with you. Call it "just as important" or "more important" or "60-40" or whatever you want, I don't care. My point, which you continue to dodge with irrelevancies, remains the same no matter how you characterize the relative importance of human resources versus supplies.

It's not difficult to grasp. I'll take you and the hospitals at your word that they are overwhelmed. I never disagreed with you on any of that (some of which you never posted before). You just keep saying stuff like its in dispute, so you can pretend your making a point, when you really aren't.

Hey, but at least you took a stab and answering what hospitals have actually done to prepare. They "did allow some residents to become full-fledged doctors early."

Whether you realize or not (and I'm betting not), this supports my point, and is consistent with two of the lame excuses you offered (see the list above) - "(2) no one knew this was coming, (3) no one knew when this was coming."

Oooooh, clever as always. A deflection into Trump bashing. It wouldn't be an LRC thread without that safety valve. Is that seriously another excuse for hospitals that you want to offer on top of the other bogus ones you've mentioned (listed above)? That the president said the virus will magically disappear? I'm the one who thinks the medical profession is incompetent, but even I would say they are sophisticated and knowledgeable enough of pandemics not to listen to predictions from Trump. YOU appear to disagree with that and believe that hospital planners were sitting around in meetings all spring and summer deciding NOT to increase staff, capacity and supplies because Trump told them the pandemic would magically disappear last Easter.

Further discussion with you seems pointless. You dodge, make erroneous assumptions, and when all else fails, descend into common idiocy (see paragraph immediately above).

Hill Stomper wrote:

You truly are Ignatius J. Reilly. Keep up the essential work.

Obscure reference, probably lost on younger posters. I appreciate your wit, though. You're aces with me, Stompie!

Google BAIT AND SWITCH.