Are hilly tempo runs ACTUALLY threshold runs?

also, is there such a thing as "too big of a hill" for most runs? I've got some absolute monsters near me and they're huge, but I can barely manage 9 minute pace up them (as someone who usually runs low 7s)

Bump, I’ve also wondered this for a while

What’s the difference between a tempo and a threshold run?

It's objectively more difficult to run a hilly course than a flat one, so if you're running LT pace on a hilly course you're pushing harder than LT intensity. You use heart rate, effort, or get a Stryd and use power to stay at your lactate threshold.

junekey wrote:

What’s the difference between a tempo and a threshold run?

Average HR, assuming variation isn't super high.

The idea is that it's an effort level you could maintain for an hour-long race. On a flat surface that means a slow but steady HR increase that reaches "lactate threshold" by the end of the run.

The idea is that your body will respond by increasing lactate threshold. That's the HR at which your body produces energy mostly from anaerobic metabolism, which cannot be maintained for more than a few seconds.

That's my understanding.

junekey wrote:

What’s the difference between a tempo and a threshold run?

The term "tempo" is used by different coaches and runners in many different ways and generally means a sustained run at a hard intensity. The intensity and duration of the hard effort is what varies. A threshold run is at lactate threshold intensity. LT is usually approximated as it's inconvenient to know that intensity exactly and few people have the equipment to measure and find out.

Lactate threshold with hills are... odd. They aren't right or wrong, they just have some catches to them that you've already noticed. Since coaches don't (usually) have access to lactate testing, especially in a setting with hills, it's hard to rely on a lot of data with things like "zones" or "%vVO2max" or whatever the flavor of the day is that a particular coach likes.

Syracuse in the past loved doing long gradual tempo runs uphill. I think FloTrack has a video of one of their sessions that I think was a steady 4 mile uphill that they liked because it was consistent, allowed slower paces (and by extension less pounding), but still hit the intensity levels that they were looking for. I'm sure there was also a sort of X-Factor that they liked being that it's such a unique stimulus that most programs don't touch or have access to.

For most of us, hills tend to be more rolling or maybe the tempo course that you're doing has a few notable hills along the way. In those cases you're going to notice spikes in effort; I believe that's what you're trying to figure out here. If tempos/LT sessions are meant to be a steady effort in the "correct" intensity level then surely hills that leave you gasping for air and change your pacing drastically run the risk of falling outside of that "correct" zone, right?

In my experience, seasoned runners (I work with collegiates) who know how to read effort levels well can encounter a hill, maintain the effort we want, and get through it without feeling a spike in acidity (i.e. feeling battery acid flood their legs). They will absolutely notice higher heart rate (HR) and breathing rate, but provided the hill isn't too steep and they aren't already near the redline, most don't notice a big interruption in the workout.

Since some like using HR to monitor if they're playing in the right sandbox, it makes putting hills into tempo sessions a nightmare to monitor. Hilly tempos are one of those sessions that you need to be comfortable with the idea that you're not coloring in the lines perfectly; some segments will have more of an anaerobic component, some will be more aerobic.

If your route is super hilly, how can you actually work your LT without going over?

Think about it more as the average LT. Building up more acidity during a hill isn't a bad thing if after the hill your body is learning to use the built up lactate to drift back to the equilibrium that we're aiming for in MLSS (maximum lactate steady state). The danger comes when each hill mounts more and more acidity each time to the point that you can't keep up with it. In this way it's almost like how you body would deal with something like 5x1600m slightly faster than LT. It's still working (almost) the same area, the reps are just a little above what you can handle properly for a 5 mile tempo, but the rest between lets things calm down enough that the overall workout behaves similarly just at a faster average pace and a few breaks in between.

It depends on pace/ effort. Tempo type runs are easier to gauge on the flats or track- and are faster. A hilly steady effort (trying to keep a more or less even pace), will hit all of the big three. Rolling hills, I have found about MP is good, and then let the terrain work all three "systems". Steeper hills will be Vo2 Max, long small grades threshold, downs/flats, aerobic.

It's a great workout and can be done in a LR. So it is really a marathoners workout that has benefits for all distance runners.

If you want to work LT only, a track or flat area would be the better option. It's the only way to keep a good pace without going overboard. But Vo2 Max works the threshold too, you go above and below during the work and rest interval, but it all balances out and teaches your body to use and clear lactate, and to run faster than race pace = faster running @ race pace.

It's my understanding that the Kenyans do not use Tempos. LRs over terrain, Vo2 Max intervals, and hill work (Vo2 Max), is their staple. This plays into how they run track, surging and recovering off a good pace. It's a lot like running a good pace over a hilly course. Just my 2 cents.

You're thinking too much about nuances. What are you trying to achieve with your training? Chances are hilly tempo runs will help you reach that goal. Before a run, I ask myself is this training stimulus going to be beneficial, if yes do it, if no, pick a different run.

isitathreshold wrote:

TLDR: If your route is super hilly, how can you actually work your LT without going over?

Thanks.

Why do you care if you go over? It isn't like training at VO2max effort doesn't also help your LT. A workout that criss cross the line (go above on the uphills, recover a bit on the downhills) is fine and a decent training stimulus. The important part is figuring out how hard these sessions are.