Why don't vdot training paces match race time?

What exactly are you asking here? Why your interval pace doesn't equal your 5k race pace?

Daniels typically has your I-pace at a few seconds faster per kilometer than your 5k race pace, and, more generally, interval or "VO2Max" pace is generally considered to be somewhere between 3k and 5k race pace. That will obviously vary depending on your fitness, however.

I’m not sure. Perhaps you are running those workouts way too hard (I’m not very familiar with the Daniels system)??

While that’s the most likely answer, perhaps you simply gave weak endurance and have better speed over shorter & middle distances.

Lastly, you might be totally underestimating your current fitness and actually be in sub-18 shape.

Nobody can really give you a definitive answer with the limited information you’ve provided, so if you want more helpful responses it would be good to list training history (how long have you run for, what dies a typical week look like), background (age, height+weight, PRs, etc).

Run161.com wrote:

What exactly are you asking here? Why your interval pace doesn't equal your 5k race pace?

Daniels typically has your I-pace at a few seconds faster per kilometer than your 5k race pace, and, more generally, interval or "VO2Max" pace is generally considered to be somewhere between 3k and 5k race pace. That will obviously vary depending on your fitness, however.

Yes that's exactly what I'm asking - looking at Daniels' training paces my vdot is 55(+) from the intervals I am doing but this vdot suggests an 18:06 race time for 5K which I'm 99% sure I can't do.

xhing wrote:

I’m not sure. Perhaps you are running those workouts way too hard (I’m not very familiar with the Daniels system)??

While that’s the most likely answer, perhaps you simply gave weak endurance and have better speed over shorter & middle distances.

Lastly, you might be totally underestimating your current fitness and actually be in sub-18 shape.

Nobody can really give you a definitive answer with the limited information you’ve provided, so if you want more helpful responses it would be good to list training history (how long have you run for, what dies a typical week look like), background (age, height+weight, PRs, etc).

I have wondered if I have done intervals too hard, but doesn't everyone just do them as hard as they can? As long as you're consistent on each one surely it's ok?

I'm a 35 year old female and I have been running since I was 10, started out doing XC and track. My old 5k PR is 9 years old and I did that off about 20-25 miles a week (but used to be inconsistent). I get to about 20 mins for 5K without much training. HM PR just under 90 mins. I am absolutely not a sprinter of any kind - can't run faster than 70 secs for 400m.

I've been trying to take it a bit more seriously lately to make the most of any ability before I get old and have been doing 30 miles a week consistently. I'm trying to add more miles but slowly. I am average height but probs carrying about half a stone more than ideal - something I'm trying to address.

Also typical week

Mon - rest

Tues - track intervals (volume 5-6K)

Wed - easy run 7 miles

Thurs - no consistent 'session' yet as am still adjusting to the track intervals after time out having a baby, but would like to do another session here. Currently easy 5

Fri -rest

Sat - easy 5 miles

Sun - easy 9-10 miles in hills off road

(Total about 30+ miles)

The obvious answer is that you are running too fast in your interval workouts.

You shouldn't be racing your intervals to gauge your fitness. That's what races are for, which is the foundation of Daniels' training methodology: Race to determine your fitness, and train within yourself based on the fitness level you've shown through your race efforts.

You're quite possibly right...I have wondered if I might be doing intervals too fast. But I should emphasise I am not trying to race my intervals. I have a long history of training and I'm pretty good at pacing. I was surprised to be doing my K reps at that speed (and 800s) so I was using the VDOT system to try and estimate what I could do in a 5 K race because there are no races going on here. I appreciate this is not how the system is meant to be used so maybe I should just not do that!

You are training at your imaginary race pace, when you should be training at your actual race pace.

Interesting. Tables aside, I’d think someone who can run Workouts of 3:32 (I assume you meant 3: and not 2:) 1000s, 2:50 800S and 80 400s without huge rest would be able to run 18:30 to 18:00. Maybe you need a few races Of 3k to 5k (Not solo time trials) to truly work through race feeling.

*stipe wrote:

Interesting. Tables aside, I’d think someone who can run Workouts of 3:32 (I assume you meant 3: and not 2:) 1000s, 2:50 800S and 80 400s without huge rest would be able to run 18:30 to 18:00. Maybe you need a few races Of 3k to 5k (Not solo time trials) to truly work through race feeling.

yeah...3:32 is cooking for a 19:xx runner. an aerobically weak runner can't typically hold the same pace for repeat 800s and 1000s.

below 18:30 should be possible. Maybe you are not a good racer? Some people need several races before they run what they are capable of.

Haha yes sorry, definitely meant 3:32!!

Yes I would love to do some 3K and 5K races but everything still cancelled here and no end in sight.

Thanks for the food for thought...I wonder if the reality is I'm in about 18.30 - 18.40 shape. In the past the vdot tables have matched spot on across from training paces to race times for me which is why I like them, but I have a hard time believing them this time, it would be far quicker than I've done before... although I'm training more consistently than ever before...so who knows! Thanks again

I would suggest just time trialing it and seeing how you do. It’s tough to wrong yourself completely dry without something to chase, but you may be very surprised.

Another good option would be a 1-mile time trial. A race effort at a shorter distance isn’t exact, but it should really help you ballpark what your current-fitness workout targets ought to be if you have doubts on pacing.

18minwannabe wrote:

I have wondered if I have done intervals too hard, but doesn't everyone just do them as hard as they can? As long as you're consistent on each one surely it's ok?

You are running your intervals too hard.

Surely it's ok is absolutely wrong in this case. You're just being a workout hero. Anyone can blast through a distance workout faster than they're supposed to. You still get some benefit, but it doesn't mean that you're instantly faster at some race distance just because you can run a workout faster than it's intended to be.

You should be taking your current fitness (ie. the recent 19:18 5k) and choosing your workout and interval paces from that. You can gradually work down from there over time and update your current fitness based on a new race or time trial result.

[You could arbitrarily pick a goal of 17:30 right now, use the paces from the table to do a workout, and complete the workout successfully, but that doesn't mean that you instantaneously transformed from a 19:18 runner to a 17:30 runner. You just killed yourself in a workout and your training for the next few days will suffer.]

Also, your volume of 30-35 mpw is low. That also makes it easier for you to be a workout hero and blast your workout faster. If you increase your mileage and you add some faster running on another day of the week, then you're going to find out that you can't crush your workout so easily anymore (But, your workout estimates will seem more accurate and your race times will be better. Win-win.).

None of the tables are accurate for me either.

I'm naturally a shorter D than endurance. I run way different when doing interval than distance. My volume is too light. My tempos are too short. My endurance strength is lacking.

All of this leads to disappoint in distance and all kinds of giggling possibilities during intervals.

Do you race 5k at an even pace? Guessing you normally go out too fast. If not, you are a weak racer. Racing is hard and you may just be willing to go all out.

You are using the tables/charts in the wrong way. You are not supposed to do a workout and then figure out how fast you can race based on the workout. You are supposed to run a race and then run the workout based on how fast the race was. The paces for the workouts should be sub-maximal. Therefore if you do a workout at the fastest possible average time, the tables should predict a race time faster than you are capable of.

Are you racing cross country and training on a track?

I don’t agree with this post for the most part. Yes it is possible to run workouts too fast but your examples are terrible. No a 19 minute 5k runner can’t just run a workout at 17:30 pace. At a certain point the workout becomes unachievable. In my experience it is possible to race a workout 2-3 VDOT points above where you really are. In some cases it is OK to push 1ish points higher other times it is better to stay dead on. It seems like it depends where in your cycle you are and what the purpose of the workout is.