(Road Racing and) Time Trialing and Training Thread - Week Ending 9/27/20

going faster miles an hour wrote:

I've never run in the carbon-plated shoes, but I'm curious: is there an adjustment process/trainable component involved in getting the most out of them (like there can be in spikes, for example, not that I've worn spikes in a good while, either)?

FWIW - I didn't think there was. I put those shoes on, and was able to run in them fine. No adjustment. Don't feel like my mechanics change in them.

To darkwave's comments... I could see that. But, I would also think about it with say, a faster track workout... you'll see guys/gals spike up before running fast. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with wearing race shoes for a good workout. I think I generally go into a workout with a plan, and try to adhere to that plan. There are exceptions when I feel really great, or when I feel really crappy, and I don't think the shoes play a big part into that for me.

But, I get what you're saying. There are workout heroes out there, but I think by and by, they would be that way, regardless of the shoes they wear.

going faster miles an hour wrote:

I've never run in the carbon-plated shoes, but I'm curious: is there an adjustment process/trainable component involved in getting the most out of them (like there can be in spikes, for example, not that I've worn spikes in a good while, either)?

In my own personal experience (different from LancRunner's) - yes, I think there is an adjustment factor. It's a very small one, but I would not go out in race in a pair if I hadn't worn them in a year - in that case, I would do a workout first.

To Lancrunner's comment about spiking up - I do think there is a slight difference. Spiking up is not just about getting used to a different feel - I suspect that when you wear spikes and have that greater grip, you also use your glutes more, so there's a strengthbuilding aspect to wearing them, in much the same way that swimmers will use paddles to develop shoulder strength. Plated shoes don't work quite the same way - they unload the muscles of your feet, rather than load them.

interesting debate - mileage will definitely tell us the answer here. I've been using an old pair of 4%s (400miles on them) for any run over 15 miles - I think it helps me but honestly probably not.

HHW - your gains are impressive! I remember you from the sub 3hr marathon thread. You're blazing fast!

Thanks RunnerChef. Nice to see you back! Hope all is well.

I have said this previously but I feel like carbon plated shoes really load up my hamstrings. I typically start to feel it around 10-12 miles into a harder effort. At least for me, just lacing them up isn't an option.

@going faster - When I first tried carbon-plated shoes, I took them out of the box once for a MP effort about one week before my marathon to get a feel for them. I didn't wear them again until the race. I was completely fine. Again, that was just my experience.

Anecdotal. But seems an uptick in PF issues w some runners I know. And esp w Haday and Rupp. They ain’t been right in years. And seemingly trained a lot in the VF. But who the hell knows.

I’m just to cheap to put to many miles on mine. Wear the flyknits on the road occasionally but they put a lot of pressure on my ankles

RRR for all of your ankle talk it seems you have the ankle strength of a jellyfish.

Hey everybody, sorry for being sporadic. Lots of changes going on here right now so by the time Sunday rolls around I often forget to post and then I remember in the middle of the week. So it feels dumb to post, but I figure if I don't get back into the habit now I probably never will.

For posterity,

Three weeks ago: 13 miles

Two weeks ago: 22 miles

Last week: 30 miles

I should have a proper post this coming Sunday about this week's running. Hope everyone has been weathering through this pandemic well, your training is as you want it, and that you've been relaxing when you can

HHW - Strong just Thin. I can touch my thumb and middle finger around it. BUT my thin calves are quite capable of handling the track..

Thanks, HHH and OR! Look forward to continuing to follow your training!

Darkwave, I agree about workout heroes in the carbon shoes...

Check out what these guys wear on the track...

https://youtu.be/4B94WMAwZNg

Many elites are also workout heroes.

And they get them for free.

Seppo Kaitenen wrote:

Many elites are also workout heroes.

And they get them for free.

Are you saying the NN running team is a bunch of workout heroes?

I would also bet they get any Nike model running shoe for free.

NIKE is genius at marketing. Literally on my bike ride home I saw a gal wearing a camelbak and clutching a phone. Jogging 9-10 min miles. In Alpha Flys.

On two separate occasions, I have seen people (who appear to be non-runners, based on build) walking around in Next%s as street shoes,

It appears most elite runners are doing some of their training in carbon plated shoes so at least at that level the argument that there is a workout hero correlation seems pretty bogus.

For us hobby joggers I suspect the correlation is probably attached to runners using anything and everything at their disposal to specific hit times in workouts that are probably beyond their abilities because they are striving for a goal that is also beyond their abilities.

I think there is another subset of hobbyjoggers that just really like shoes and enjoy trying different shoe technologies. I would put myself in this category. Yes I enjoy running fast (for me) but I honestly just find it fun to put on a pair of carbon plated shoes and go out for a workout. It would be the equivalent to someone taking a sports-car for a ride.

As to people wearing next’s as street shoes that is just wrong and weird.

Look at all the runners who do workouts with Kipchoge. How come they haven't run 2:01? Clearly, many of them are training over their heads.

We have a training group of East Africans in my city. I see them working out at the park and on the track. All in Air Zoom Victorys, Alphaflys, and/or Next percents. There is no such as a tempo run to them, it is a 5-6 mile race every time. The gloom in their eyes tells the story. A fartlek is a 60 second quarter on dirt followed by a hard "float" repeated anywhere from 10-30 times. I watched them do a track session a few weeks ago; the coach told them to do 15x600 at 10k pace. First 200: 30. No reps were slower than 1:36. The coach chuckled and told a 27:0x guy "I hope you're in 26 minute shape"

I do not fault them in any way for this approach, and it obviously works for them. But most people would break down if they tried to train this way. Additionally, many of the runners in the group do workouts that would indicate faster race times than they actually put up, which makes them workout heroes in my book.

I'm not too sure about that. I suspect that most professional runners' social media presences are carefully cultivated with their sponsors in mind. So when I see an elite runner doing a workout in the vaporfly on instagram, I personally suspect that it's less about some specific gain from training in the VF, and more from wanting to have the photo of them on the track in that pair of shoes.

Nailed it.

The Kenyan groups generally have a pretty different approach to workouts, though, right? Like, guys go out and try hang with the leader if they can, for as long as they can, then drop when they feel like they're done, and the expectation is that the vast majority will drop before the full workout is over. In contrast, the Western approach tends to be more that you're trying to finish a prescribed workout and something went wrong if you don't. So, "doing a workout with Kipchoge" means something pretty different in that context.

One question I find interesting is how, and how well, the hang-and-drop approach works developmentally, and how it squares with Kipchoge's professed emphasis on sustaining progress over time, seldom pushing past 80% in workouts, etc. Is it the case that the training is only really appropriate for a few studs, and the rest of the guys are just eggs throwing themselves against the wall (which may be a rational choice on their part, given their circumstances)? Or can the hang-and-drop approach work just fine - and maybe even better - for developing athletes as long as they have the necessary talent and preparation to be running with the group at all, and they're good about dropping when they need to drop and not putting themselves too far in the hole?

Outstanding work in that 5k, by the way!