A lot has been made by some posters that GB currently has 3 guys ranked 10th-20th in the 1500m, but why isn't that translating to positive results at longer distances? Their third ranked man in the 5000m is only 64th and in the 10000m only 93rd.
A lot has been made by some posters that GB currently has 3 guys ranked 10th-20th in the 1500m, but why isn't that translating to positive results at longer distances? Their third ranked man in the 5000m is only 64th and in the 10000m only 93rd.
The winner of the last two Olympic 5000s and 10000s was from Great Britain. That's not too bad.
I'm not talking about 5 years ago, I'm talking about the present.
Based on what's in a British breakfast, probably that.
YARLY wrote:
Based on what's in a British breakfast, probably that.
There's a breakfast that can make you good at the 1500 but bad at 5,000 and 10,000?
Like Mo Farah?
There's a theory, which has drawn some attention in the last 30-60 years, that East Africans are well suited to distance running, and more dominant at distances from 3,000m to marathon than at the middle distances (where they still excel).
If we exclude American athletes of East African heritage (don't get me wrong, they're no less American than anybody), the U.S. had 3 athletes break 13:20 in 2019 and a fastest 10k performance of 27:52. By comparison Great Britain, with approximately 1/5 the population of the U.S., had 2 athletes break 13:20 and a fastest 10k of 27:56 (and #2 at 27:57). Even these modest stats compare favorably with other European countries of a similar size (Germany, France, Italy except Ethiopian-born Crippa).
They are performing exceptionally well at 1500, and I'm sure if all those 1500 studs wanted to move up we would see some more sub-13:10 guys giving Butchart a run for his money--but they would be relatively worse than at the mid-distances and have less of a chance against the East Africans.
No, not like someone from 5 years ago who isn't ranked top 50 in either event now.
Jackson Galaxy wrote:
There's a theory, which has drawn some attention in the last 30-60 years, that East Africans are well suited to distance running, and more dominant at distances from 3,000m to marathon than at the middle distances (where they still excel).
If we exclude American athletes of East African heritage (don't get me wrong, they're no less American than anybody), the U.S. had 3 athletes break 13:20 in 2019 and a fastest 10k performance of 27:52. By comparison Great Britain, with approximately 1/5 the population of the U.S., had 2 athletes break 13:20 and a fastest 10k of 27:56 (and #2 at 27:57). Even these modest stats compare favorably with other European countries of a similar size (Germany, France, Italy except Ethiopian-born Crippa).
They are performing exceptionally well at 1500, and I'm sure if all those 1500 studs wanted to move up we would see some more sub-13:10 guys giving Butchart a run for his money--but they would be relatively worse than at the mid-distances and have less of a chance against the East Africans.
You kind of touched upon the correct point here. But maybe not how you think.
There is a culture of middle distance running in the UK. Most distance runners want to be good at the 1500. The longer distances are not so attractive.
It's the same reason Ethiopia doesn't have many 800m runners, for example.
I actually agree with ex-runner here :( The 1500m and even the 800m have always been the glamour events. I doubt if any country has produced more world class 800/1500 doublers than GB. Jake Wightman, Josh Kerr, and Charlie Grice are all very good 800m runners. Most of the best 5000m runners GB has produced were 1500m guys seeking easier competition.
Josh Kerr is running an 800m on Saturday. It will be interesting to see what he does, although I wonder if it means he wont be at Monaco? Jake Wightman ran a 1:45 ad hoc time trial the other day.
Elliott Giles, George Mills, and Charlie Grice had a 1000m time trial last week (I don't think it's been mentioned here) and ran 2:17/2:18/2:19 respectively.
If Ethiopians were suited for the 800m they would have some. Like everyone else they gravitate towards their best events. The main difference seems to be that 1500m runners of African descent seem to slow down much less than their European competitors when moving up to the 5000m (running the same 1500 times, obviously and not being 800/1500 but pure 1500m types a la Ingebrigtens).
The OP has a point. In the '70s and '80s the Brits had medalists and WR holders like Brendan Foster, Ian Stewart, Dave Bedford, Dave Moorcroft and Steve Jones. On the women's side they had Liz McColgan in the early '90s. Then, except for Mo Farah's run, the well seems to have gone dry.
HRE wrote:
YARLY wrote:
Based on what's in a British breakfast, probably that.
There's a breakfast that can make you good at the 1500 but bad at 5,000 and 10,000?
Eels, scones and tea
Coevett wrote:
I actually agree with ex-runner here :( The 1500m and even the 800m have always been the glamour events. I doubt if any country has produced more world class 800/1500 doublers than GB. Jake Wightman, Josh Kerr, and Charlie Grice are all very good 800m runners. Most of the best 5000m runners GB has produced were 1500m guys seeking easier competition.
Josh Kerr is running an 800m on Saturday. It will be interesting to see what he does, although I wonder if it means he wont be at Monaco? Jake Wightman ran a 1:45 ad hoc time trial the other day.
Elliott Giles, George Mills, and Charlie Grice had a 1000m time trial last week (I don't think it's been mentioned here) and ran 2:17/2:18/2:19 respectively.
What is your point? That there are some competitive British middle distance runners currently? Indeed.
Jackson Galaxy wrote:
Coevett wrote:
I actually agree with ex-runner here :( The 1500m and even the 800m have always been the glamour events. I doubt if any country has produced more world class 800/1500 doublers than GB. Jake Wightman, Josh Kerr, and Charlie Grice are all very good 800m runners. Most of the best 5000m runners GB has produced were 1500m guys seeking easier competition.
Josh Kerr is running an 800m on Saturday. It will be interesting to see what he does, although I wonder if it means he wont be at Monaco? Jake Wightman ran a 1:45 ad hoc time trial the other day.
Elliott Giles, George Mills, and Charlie Grice had a 1000m time trial last week (I don't think it's been mentioned here) and ran 2:17/2:18/2:19 respectively.
What is your point? That there are some competitive British middle distance runners currently? Indeed.
Looking forward to them all failing to make the next championship finals. Maybe Kerr will grab an 8th place medal.
bengel wrote:
If Ethiopians were suited for the 800m they would have some. Like everyone else they gravitate towards their best events. The main difference seems to be that 1500m runners of African descent seem to slow down much less than their European competitors when moving up to the 5000m (running the same 1500 times, obviously and not being 800/1500 but pure 1500m types a la Ingebrigtens).
Not true. Mohammed Aman was one of the best 800m runners in the world. Beat Rudisha. His whole career people in Ethiopia were telling him to move up and run something else like the 5k, despite the fact that he was clearly best at the 800m.
Culture plays a big part. Fast white guys in the USA get told to run the 800 rather than the 400.
In the UK the number of 800 and 1500 races far, far outweigh the number of competitive 5ks or above. I can count the number of competitive track 10k events held in a year on one hand.
The BMC is a big driver for high quality middle distance competition being available. Focus on the longer events is less prevalent.
This is mainly genetic. East Africa 1500m and up. West Africa sprint.
If people do not gravitate towards their best event, it is unlikely they will succeed.
I'll tell you why. The standard of coaching in Britain is awful. When our tracks were open, there were a group of guys who used to come down to do the exact same session EVERY week. It was 8 800's off 45s recovery. No idea why they were so obsessed with this session.
My last coach set me ridiculous times to run my reps in (like K's in 2:55 when I was a high 16s 5k guy). I couldn't hit the times, and kept getting injured due to over-exertion. I got so fed up with the poor quality of coaching that I now run all my sessions solo and I'm far fitter than I've ever been before. Looking to break 15 in the 5k soon. Probably won't ever run under a coach again.
bengel wrote:
This is mainly genetic. East Africa 1500m and up. West Africa sprint.
If people do not gravitate towards their best event, it is unlikely they will succeed.
There is nothing special genetically about Kenyans. Many studies showing that Kenyans are as genetically similar to eachother as they are to westerners.
Any genetic advantage that Kenyan athletes have over their population will be found in other's across the world. Maybe there are more people in East Africa with genes suited to running, but there will be plenty of people worldwide who have these genes also. Kenyans aren't aliens.
The difference is the culture of running in Kenya to discover these talents. And the life commitment to develop this talent.
Absolute case and point is Jakob. He has run times as a teenager we previously reserved in our minds for African descent athletes.
Rupp has run 26:46. We have had non-africans running low 13s in the 5k for years.
Running as a career choice is just not very popular in Europe or America.
There are outliers in all populations, but their means are different. Hence there are more
runners from East African excelling e.g. over 5000m.