Tom Schwartz vs. Renato Canova

Cool

Canova advises training at current fitness. There are very few workouts that are done at goal race pace when you aren’t there yet

Tinman is a better coach

Training at current fitness ability instead of goal times has been around since the 1960s. This was not an invention of "coach Schwartz".

The whole science of lactate testing is based on the fact that training on current physiological parameters leads to improvements in future races. In other words - if your threshold gets tested around 5:30/mile, don't train like you have a threshold of 5:15/mile, even if that is your goal eventually. Training at your 5:30/mile would get it down further.

Goal pace training can lead to injuries, burnouts, etc. Trust the process. Maybe you don't even have the talent to ever reach the arbitrary goal pace you set.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Training at current fitness ability instead of goal times has been around since the 1960s. This was not an invention of "coach Schwartz".

The whole science of lactate testing is based on the fact that training on current physiological parameters leads to improvements in future races. In other words - if your threshold gets tested around 5:30/mile, don't train like you have a threshold of 5:15/mile, even if that is your goal eventually. Training at your 5:30/mile would get it down further.

Goal pace training can lead to injuries, burnouts, etc. Trust the process. Maybe you don't even have the talent to ever reach the arbitrary goal pace you set.

This is the dumbest answer I have ever seen. A dumb justification of Tinman's DUMB training.

1- Nobody recommends sprinting a threshold workout.

2 - Tinman's only decent athlete just missed the most important race of his career due to injury

3 - The idea that you can run a pace in a race that you've never hit in practice is foolish

So what is your thought on goal pace training? What is an appropriate goal for a particular race?

you will train for goal paces, and even faster, when you are training paces for shorter races. This is part of the beauty of multi pace training!

high school xc coach wrote:

you will train for goal paces, and even faster, when you are training paces for shorter races. This is part of the beauty of multi pace training!

Exactly. If I do a workout at 3k pace, I am basically doing a workout at 5k goal pace. You should be training at all paces. This "debate" is just stupid.

cheesewiz wrote:

Canova advises training at current fitness. There are very few workouts that are done at goal race pace when you aren’t there yet

really?

i think the principle of renato canova is to train his athletes to extend the time they run at a specific goal pace until they reach the full race distance. the different phases of his training are designed to fulfill this idea step by step.

wisenheimer at work wrote:

cheesewiz wrote:

Canova advises training at current fitness. There are very few workouts that are done at goal race pace when you aren’t there yet

really?

i think the principle of renato canova is to train his athletes to extend the time they run at a specific goal pace until they reach the full race distance. the different phases of his training are designed to fulfill this idea step by step.

That's what I thought too

roller coaster wrote:

high school xc coach wrote:

you will train for goal paces, and even faster, when you are training paces for shorter races. This is part of the beauty of multi pace training!

Exactly. If I do a workout at 3k pace, I am basically doing a workout at 5k goal pace. You should be training at all paces. This "debate" is just stupid.

Only if your goal 5k pace is the same as your 3k pace.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Training at current fitness ability instead of goal times has been around since the 1960s. This was not an invention of "coach Schwartz".

The whole science of lactate testing is based on the fact that training on current physiological parameters leads to improvements in future races. In other words - if your threshold gets tested around 5:30/mile, don't train like you have a threshold of 5:15/mile, even if that is your goal eventually. Training at your 5:30/mile would get it down further.

Goal pace training can lead to injuries, burnouts, etc. Trust the process. Maybe you don't even have the talent to ever reach the arbitrary goal pace you set.

Echoing the others... multi-pace training has been around since the 60s too lol. And Tinman uses it.

roller coaster wrote:

high school xc coach wrote:

you will train for goal paces, and even faster, when you are training paces for shorter races. This is part of the beauty of multi pace training!

Exactly. If I do a workout at 3k pace, I am basically doing a workout at 5k goal pace. You should be training at all paces. This "debate" is just stupid.

Wrong. Under your logic you can just run 10x100m at 100% and that's goal pace for a marathon.

This debate IS stupid...because the science has been settled for decades and you are wrong.

The thing I notice most about Canova, at least on LRC, is that he seems to find almost constant acrimony in threads related to EPO and other PED use. Maybe it's not justified on my part, but I have come to classify him in my mind in the same category as Dr. Michele Ferrari.

albanese wrote:

roller coaster wrote:

Exactly. If I do a workout at 3k pace, I am basically doing a workout at 5k goal pace. You should be training at all paces. This "debate" is just stupid.

Wrong. Under your logic you can just run 10x100m at 100% and that's goal pace for a marathon.

This debate IS stupid...because the science has been settled for decades and you are wrong.

this makes no sense.

UmbrellaMan wrote:

wisenheimer at work wrote:

really?

i think the principle of renato canova is to train his athletes to extend the time they run at a specific goal pace until they reach the full race distance. the different phases of his training are designed to fulfill this idea step by step.

That's what I thought too

This is true - but during the specific phase. Before the specific phase his training is very much structured around internal load which is more or less "effort."

However - during the specific phase - things need to be at race pace. And if they can't be done at race pace - a new goal should be chosen.

It gets a bad rap, but that is why training using HR and other measures of internal load are extremely beneficial to athletes of all levels when learning effort and lead to bigger gains in fitness instead of people racing their workouts even while insisting they are not.

There will always be workouts at “goal pace” or faster than in most training plans. But most of Canova’s paces are done at percentages of current fitness. If there is a 40 minute tempo run at 90 percent of 10k pace, it doesn’t make sense for it to be 90 percent of goal pace, that would make it race effort in the fundamental phase

I've listened to Renato Canova talk about this philosophy before and phrases it in terms more of athlete mentality.

For example, say you have a runner who wants to improve from 2:30 marathon to 2:20 marathon. Say he can run at 2:20 marathon pace for 1:50 max. If the runners is a Kenyan, he thinks in terms of "I need to increase the time I can sustain my goal marathon pace for 30 minutes longer," whereas if he is American he thinks in terms of "I need to increase my marathon pace by 13 seconds per mile to reach my goal."

The below article emphasises on running goal pace for marathon. Any suggestions on this article?

https://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank72.html