For the past 10 weeks, I've ran ~50mpw, to build an aerobic base to start training for a fast 5k/10k time. With most races being cancelled, however, I thought it would be interesting to train for 400m. Is it possible to both train for 400m and keep up the mileage of easy running I was doing? If so, what kinds of workouts should I do?
Age: 21m
recent time trial efforts:
400m: 61s
800m: 2:15
I have some experience with this, so here's my longwinded thinking (for what it's worth)
Given that you are mainly doing 5K/10K mileage, and your 400 PR is 61 at 21yo, I'd guess that you can most likely improve your 400m time by adding some workouts to help you transition to running at speed.
Your first goal, I'm guessing, is obviously to break 60. You'll probably get a lot of suggestions on the boards here re top-end speed development, but that would require reducing your mileage -- and it sounds like that's not what you want to do. It may also be a shock to your legs to suddenly introduce fast stuff like flying 30/60's or flat-out 150m repeats. So in your case, I wouldn't suggest that sort of approach.
Here's a way to transition your legs to faster speeds, while keeping your mileage up and still aiming to run between, say, 56-60 sec:
6 weeks, 2 "transitional speed sessions" /week.
1st weekly session: In-and-out 100s, slow-jog the curve, fast on the straight. 1600m total. After warming up, do this workout fresh, before any mileage (if you are also doing an easy run). 1st 2 weeks, run the fast 100's @ 16-17 sec, next 2 weeks @ 15-16 sec, 3rd 2 weeks @ 14-15 sec.
2nd weekly session: Also do this workout fresh. 4 x 300m with 5 min standing/walking rest. Take the full recovery. Workout effort should be 90-95%. It's ok if your first session is 48 sec repeats or whatever, you just aren't used to running faster yet. Just let your legs adjust and your 300m sessions will improve. Try to get them down to 42-43 sec if possible.
If you're looking to do this over more like 12 weeks, I'd suggest the first 6 weeks to do 2 hill sessions per week: 12 x 200m hills at mile effort with 3 min walk-back recovery, and 6 x 400m hills at 3K effort with 3 min jog-back (then standing rest) recovery. I think you'd be more likely to get better results with this 12-week approach, because going into the (above) 2nd 6 weeks, you'd probably be stronger/faster.
If you want to add 6 more weeks, then after both of the above phases, I'd suggest the following:
Session 1: 4 x 150m fast, full 5 min rec. 95-99% effort.
Session 2: 600m, 400m, 200m, full 8 min rec. 90-95% effort on the first 2 repeats, 98-100% on the 200m (understanding that you will be tired going into it).
....
Any way you go, after completing 1, 2, or all 3 phases above, the next following week is your TT week. I'd suggest laying off all distance runs for that week, and running a super 400m PR with something like this:
Sun - 4 x 200m @ goal TT pace, full 5 min rec
Mon - off
Tue - 3 x 200m ...
Wed - off
Thu - 2 x 200m ...
Fri - off
Sat - 400m TT
Doing these suggested workouts means that you'd probably have to stop your 5K/10K hard sessions while doing the above. Just easy runs, and maybe one long run or tempo run per week.
If you do all 18 weeks (plus the 'rest/sharpening' week), you may surprise yourself. But it depends on how many weeks you want to dedicate to this experiment ...
Wow, this plan seems very reasonable, I’m definitely going to try it out. It’ll be curious to see how fast I can run a 400m off of this. My 400pr from high school was actually 58 off of regular distance training, but I haven’t done any real speed work since then.
My original plan was to try to follow a regular sprint program and run easy mileage, but that probably would get me injured.
random_user wrote:
Wow, this plan seems very reasonable, I’m definitely going to try it out. It’ll be curious to see how fast I can run a 400m off of this. My 400pr from high school was actually 58 off of regular distance training, but I haven’t done any real speed work since then.
My original plan was to try to follow a regular sprint program and run easy mileage, but that probably would get me injured.
Depending on what you ran in meets, there is a decent chance that 58 was a result of those races, and not your regular distance training.
I try to get my kids in as many 4x400s and 4x800s as possible. Those meets are awesome speed workouts that need to be replaced in practice when you are not participating in dual meets every week.
random_user wrote:
Wow, this plan seems very reasonable, I’m definitely going to try it out. It’ll be curious to see how fast I can run a 400m off of this. My 400pr from high school was actually 58 off of regular distance training, but I haven’t done any real speed work since then.
My original plan was to try to follow a regular sprint program and run easy mileage, but that probably would get me injured.
Cool! Keep us posted re your progress!
I forgot to say - if you are going to do all 3 phases, it might be a good idea to do a 400m TT beginning, middle, and end of Phase 3.
Sub-8 Mile wrote:
Any way you go, after completing 1, 2, or all 3 phases above, the next following week is your TT week. I'd suggest laying off all distance runs for that week, and running a super 400m PR with something like this:
Sun - 4 x 200m @ goal TT pace, full 5 min rec
Mon - off
Tue - 3 x 200m ...
Wed - off
Thu - 2 x 200m ...
Fri - off
Sat - 400m TT
Oops, I should have suggested to run those 200's at 1 sec faster than goal TT pace. Forgot what I was doing for a sec there, my bad.
Short answer: it's possible
Long answer: it depends on your genetics. If you have ACE ll or even lb it will be hard to activate the sprinting type as long as you build capillaries. If you are dd then you should be okay:)
i fi was you i would race a mile/1500, maybe 800, you mileage will pay off
Sub-8 Mile wrote:
random_user wrote:
Wow, this plan seems very reasonable, I’m definitely going to try it out. It’ll be curious to see how fast I can run a 400m off of this. My 400pr from high school was actually 58 off of regular distance training, but I haven’t done any real speed work since then.
My original plan was to try to follow a regular sprint program and run easy mileage, but that probably would get me injured.
Cool! Keep us posted re your progress!
Will do. I won't be reporting anything for a couple of weeks at least though, because I'll be doing the hill workouts.
gunnerdrog wrote:
i fi was you i would race a mile/1500, maybe 800, you mileage will pay off
I'm probably going to do 1600/800 time trials along with the 400TTs just to see how this training affects my performance at these distances as well.
Finished week 1 7/13-19
Monday - 12x 200m hill repeats @mile effort w/ 3 minute walk down rest. Turns out I don't need 3 minutes rest, just the jog back to the bottom (~1:30) is enough. Not too hard of a workout. Warm up and cooldown included, 6.5miles.
Tuesday - 8 miles easy @~8:30 pace.
Wednesday - 6x400 hill repeats @3k effort w/ 3 minute jog down recovery. Felt tougher than workout 1, but the hill is steeper. Warmup and cooldown included, 8 miles.
Thursday - 8 miles "easy".
Ended up racing some guy on my usual route. One mile was 6:00, the rest were around 8:00.
Friday - 5 miles @ ~8:00min.
Left ankle hurt when I woke up. Was worrisome, but it didn't hurt at all when I put shoes on and started running.
Saturday - 8 miles @ 9:00min.
Turns out I probably just smacked the outside of my ankle without noticing, ankle pain essentially gone.
Sunday - 7miles, 5 @ 9:00, 2 @ 7:00.
Legs feeling tired, picked up the last 2 miles for fun.
Great, nice job on that first week.
I might suggest that if 90 sec jog-back was sufficient for the 12x200m hills, the pace/effort was maybe a bit low. This shouldn't feel like a killer workout, but shouldn't be easy either.
Did you time the 12 repeats? If so, maybe try to hit 1 sec faster per rep next time.
To clarify - what I mean is, 12 x 200m hills with 90 sec jog-back is a different workout, a bit more distance-oriented. What we are trying to do with this workout is something like an early-season tempo for 400m runners (they use the word "tempo" a bit differently than distance runners) combined with a strength-building hill session to work on knee drive etc and prepare for faster stuff later.
If the workout is done at a bit of an easier effort such that 90 sec recovery is fine, then the pace should be a bit faster to achieve the intended result.
The first 4 should feel easy as pie. The middle 4 should begin to feel moderately hard. The last 4 should be more difficult ... the biggest benefits of the workout happen during the last 4 reps. But the athlete has to do the first 8 correctly to get there. This may take some patience, as the session will start out feeling almost too easy.
Over the course of this phase, the 200 & 400 hill reps will probably get a bit faster, while perceived effort stays constant.
Sometimes, if in writing, verbal nuance can be lost or misunderstood. I don't want to come across as criticizing OP here, just suggesting an adjustment that I think will help, and explaining my reasoning.
Great job so far!
Sub-8 Mile wrote:
Great, nice job on that first week.
I might suggest that if 90 sec jog-back was sufficient for the 12x200m hills, the pace/effort was maybe a bit low. This shouldn't feel like a killer workout, but shouldn't be easy either.
Did you time the 12 repeats? If so, maybe try to hit 1 sec faster per rep next time.
Thanks for the advice! Next time I do 200m repeats, I'll increase the recovery back to 3:00 minutes, and increase the intensity. Unfortunately, I already did this workout today for week 2, but I'll try to make it more like a sprint workout weeks 3-6.
No worries, looks like you are doing well. To clarify further, the 12x200 hills shouldn't be a full sprint session either.
Since mile effort seemed too easy, I'd suggest trying your best guess at 1200m effort, or maybe a second faster as I previously posted. You'll know you hit it on the head when the first 4 reps feel smooth, middle 4 moderately hard, and last 4 more challenging.
And then, if the next session is too easy, you probably want to plan on going a bit faster the next time. Important to keep the 3 min recovery, though, or else it turns into a completely different workout with less (or more!) recovery.
Week 2 update (7/20 - 7/26)
M - 12x200 hills w/ 1:30 jog rest. 8 miles total // will change back to 3:00 next week, and quicken pace
Tu - 8 miles easy @ 8:30 pace
W - 6x400 hills w/ jog back rest (around 3 minutes). 8 miles total //quite difficult
Th - 8 miles easy @ 8:30 pace
F - Warmup + attempt at tempo + CD. Was doing some 1200m repeats on the track @low 6ish, but I started to feel my hamstring on the third(not from the curves of the track, just from the speed) and cut it off. Total: 6 miles.
Sa - 6.5 miles easy @ 8:30 pace.
Su - started new job, missed my run today. Will need to work on time management
Total : ~44.5 miles. This week felt like an adjustment to the new workouts. I definitely felt more tired on monday and wednesday in comparison to week 1. That's usual though, not worried about it.
Week 3 (7/27-8/2)
M - 6*~200m hills w/ 3:00 walk rest. Took additional rest, did each repeat in about 45s. Ran out of time, had to get to work, workout cut in half. 5.24 miles
Tu- 8 miles @ 9:00 pace.
We- 6*400m w/ 3:00 jog rest. Pushed myself pretty hard on this workout
Th - 10.5 miles @ 8:30 pace.
Fr - 8 miles @ 8:30 pace
Sa - took day off
Su - 7 miles @ 8:30 pace
total - 41 miles
Week 4 (8/3-8/9)
M - took another day off, felt tired from work
T - 12*200 hills w/ 3:00 walk rest. Around 45s per repeat. 6.7 miles
W- 5 miles @ 8:40 pace.
Th - 6 * 400m hills w/ 3:00 jog rest. Feeling unmotivated, but put in good effort. 5.5miles
F - 8 miles @ 8 minute pace.
Sa - 5.7 miles @ 8:30 pace
Su - 8 miles @ 8 minute pace.
total: 38 miles
Looking good OP! How are the hill repeats feeling?
I wanted to ask - is it possible to run the 200m hill repeats just a bit faster? Not a sprint, but at mile effort. You have posted 45 sec; that's 6 min pace and I'm guessing it might be a bit slow.
For example, if you are in 5:00 mile shape, you'd want to run the 200m hills approximately at uphill "mile effort", so around 5:15-5:30 pace, or about 39-41 sec.
Another example: 4:20 pace is 32.5/200m, so about 34-35 uphill would approximate "mile effort".
OP, you are running the 200m hills is 45 sec, that's mile effort if you are around 6:15-6-30 shape. In which case, great.
Alternatively, you know your body and if 45 sec is the right effort for you, for that session, right now, then perfect.
The 400m hills should, ideally, be at 3K effort.
The purpose of these sessions is to build leg strength and to prepare for faster sessions coming up in the next phase (in&out 100's and 300m repeats) without those sessions being a shock to your legs.