VDOT and HR disagree

How did you measure your max? In a lab/VO2MAX test? It's not easy to find out exactly what your absolute max is.

Your max can also depend on hydration status, glycogen levels, time of day, stress levels, weather, etc..

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

How did you measure your max? In a lab/VO2MAX test? It's not easy to find out exactly what your absolute max is.

Your max can also depend on hydration status, glycogen levels, time of day, stress levels, weather, etc..

Dumb response to a fairly dumb question.

LateRunnerPhil: he didn't even mention his VO2 max nor did he take a VO2 max test. This is obvious. I don't know what caused you to hallucinate "VO2 max" in his post.

OP: easy runs are whatever feels easy. Throw away the HR monitor and garbage formulas.

LetsBeHonestHere wrote:

[quote]LateRunnerPhil wrote:

OP: easy runs are whatever feels easy. Throw away the HR monitor and garbage formulas.

bad advice because most people who go by feel run too fast on easy days since they dont know what truly easy feels like.

80-82% MHR is too much for an easy run. Should be around 70% (65-75).

9 per mile isn't ridiculously slow. It a normal easy pace for your level.

Jack Daniels overestimate easy pace in his tables. Same for long distance theoritetical PRs according to VDOT.

The longer the distance is, the stronger the PR is for same VDOT.

They both feel easy. Obviously 9:00 is a little easier (almost painfully slow and feeling like a shuffle), but maybe that’s because I’ve never tried running that slow.

And to Phil, yes, I’ve done lab tests, but they were always for LT (5:25 running / 310W biking if you want to know, which had an associated submax VO2 of 64...never did a full VO2 max). I can’t get anywhere close to that now, though. However, max HR is pretty easy to get, and you don’t need a lab. You just run a bunch of intervals until your HR stops getting faster. 10x 400 should do that for anyone.

Impala31 wrote:

9 per mile isn't ridiculously slow. It a normal easy pace for your level.

Jack Daniels overestimate easy pace in his tables. Same for long distance theoritetical PRs according to VDOT.

The longer the distance is, the stronger the PR is for same VDOT.

This is kind of what I was expecting someone would say. Just feels weird.

I’ve never heard someone say that the VDOT tables overestimated, though. That seems to agree with my HR. What else have seen about them being to fast?

My E pace according to that table is almost 2 minutes/mile faster than I normally go.

Hardloper wrote:

My E pace according to that table is almost 2 minutes/mile faster than I normally go.

I'm also going 1-2 minute/mile slower than what Daniels tells me to do for easy pace.

Re max heart rate - I have always taken the highest hr, in the last year or so, from that reached during flat intervals or hill reps. Is a VO2max test likely to come out any different?

Many training plans give both a pace and a heart rate. More often than not they do not match up. For the easy and long run, I think it is best to go with the heart rate.

Alfie wrote:

Re max heart rate - I have always taken the highest hr, in the last year or so, from that reached during flat intervals or hill reps. Is a VO2max test likely to come out any different?

A VO2max test is measuring your max rate of oxygen consumption, not your heart rate so that question doesn't really make sense.

Impala31 wrote:

Hardloper wrote:

My E pace according to that table is almost 2 minutes/mile faster than I normally go.

I'm also going 1-2 minute/mile slower than what Daniels tells me to do for easy pace.

I wonder if Daniel's use of E pace is the range he wants a runner to use only when E comes up during a workout. For example in this workout:

15 min T pace + 3 min E + 10 min T + 3 min E + 5 min T

is it that during the 3 minute E runs the runner should target the range he specifically calls out, and that all other runs during the week that are not workouts, throw the E range out the window and run by feel?

A VO2max test is done on a treadmill, wearing a hrm, to exhaustion. That is how max hr is measured.

Impala31 wrote:

Hardloper wrote:

My E pace according to that table is almost 2 minutes/mile faster than I normally go.

I'm also going 1-2 minute/mile slower than what Daniels tells me to do for easy pace.

Follow up question: are JD’s I and R paces too slow?

If I’m slowing all the way down to 9’s for E days, shouldn’t that mean I could put some more effort into Q days?

FWIW, when I was running 16:30 5k, I was also running 49/50 for a 400, so maybe the I and R just feel too easy?

Jack Daniels isnt whiskey wrote:

Impala31 wrote:

I'm also going 1-2 minute/mile slower than what Daniels tells me to do for easy pace.

Follow up question: are JD’s I and R paces too slow?

If I’m slowing all the way down to 9’s for E days, shouldn’t that mean I could put some more effort into Q days?

FWIW, when I was running 16:30 5k, I was also running 49/50 for a 400, so maybe the I and R just feel too easy?

Then you are a great 800 runner training for being an average 5k runner.... sad

Training is not about running as fast as possible. I and R pace are good from what I remember from Daniels.

I you run slower on easy days and the same on Q days, you will recover better, assimilate workouts better and maybe you will be able to do more during a week, but not faster that what your PR suggest!!

OP you need to read up

9:00 pace is not too slow for 17:xx 5K runner

You need to learn about capillarization

Get your miles up

HR training is asinine especially in the heat

Ever heard of cardiac drift?

True E is 5K + 4 min

Daniels E pace is High end aerobic

Impala31 wrote:

Then you are a great 800 runner training for being an average 5k runner.... sad

Training is not about running as fast as possible. I and R pace are good from what I remember from Daniels.

I you run slower on easy days and the same on Q days, you will recover better, assimilate workouts better and maybe you will be able to do more during a week, but not faster that what your PR suggest!!

Lol. That’s probably about right. Maybe more like “less mediocre” on the 800.

The problem is that the options after college for the 800 are:

1. Diamond League

2. Masters, which seems like Intramurals. They have like one meet a year. There will be three people in the 35-39 heat of the 800. I’ll have to travel to go there. I can just roll out of bed for a 5k in my neighborhood every other weekend, though.

Is there a better option for running track after college?

It’s the summer. It is hard to keep your HR down. My VDOT based on times is in the mid 60s, based on HR and pace right now I’m probably in the high 50s. Per other posters just ignore it and try to run by feel. The times will come as things cool down I bet.

here in France you can race 800 whenever you want from April to end of July.

Age does not matter. Only level matters. You run in the same races when you are 20 and 35yo. The sub 2' (or sub 1'50 if it is a big meet) guy are in heat 1. 2-2'05 heat 2etc whatever the age.

It's not the same in the US?