Why the Sub4s of today are bogus.

BSPenn wrote:

I watched a replay of Leo Daschbach's tremendous mile run. He is credited with running a 3:59.71 mile. That's fantastic, but I have to wonder how does that compare to Roger Bannister's sub 4 mile or Jim Ryun's 3:55.3? I mean Bannister ran on a cinder track with relatively primitive shoes. Jim Ryun ran a 3:55.3 on a cinder track too in 1966!! Today we have tracks that are "tuned." Today's runner gets an added advantage 1.5% that Ryan, Liquori, Danielson, and others in the 1960 s never had.

A few years ago I heard a Ted talk by David Epstein. He said that today's athletes aren't faster but technology has made them faster. It got me thinking.

"In 1954, Sir Roger Bannister became the first man to run under four minutes in the mile. Nowadays, college kids do that every year. On rare occasions, a high school kid does it. As of the end of last year, 1,314 men had run under four minutes in the mile, but like Jesse Owens, Sir Roger Bannister ran on soft cinders that stole far more energy from his legs than the synthetic tracks of today. So I consulted biomechanics experts to find out how much slower it is to run on cinders than synthetic tracks, and their consensus that it's one and a half percent slower. " David Epstein, Ted2014.

Look, the sub4 mile is sacred. Like the hour bike ride in cycling. What has technology done to our records?

"Throughout sports, technology has changed the face of performance. In 1972, Eddy Merckx set the record for the longest distance cycled in one hour at 30 miles, 3,774 feet. Now that record improved and improved as bicycles improved and became more aerodynamic all the way until 1996, when it was set at 35 miles, 1,531 feet, nearly five miles farther than Eddy Merckx cycled in 1972. But then in 2000, the International Cycling Union decreed that anyone who wanted to hold that record had to do so with essentially the same equipment that Eddy Merckx used in 1972. Where does the record stand today? 30 miles, 4,657 feet, a grand total of 883 feet farther than Eddy Merckx cycled more than four decades ago. Essentially the entire improvement in this record was due to technology." - David Epstein , Ted2014.

We need to do a similar thing with the mile. If you're going to say your ran a sub4, do it like Bannister, Ryun and Liquori did. Get on a cinder track and run in Bannister's or Ryun's shoes.

I did a few calculations on the sub4 miles run since Webb's 2001 record.

Here's what it looks like (corrected by 1.5%):

Original time Corrected time Name Year

03:55.3 03:55.3 Jim Ryun 1965

03:53.4 03:56.9 Alan Webb 2001

03:59.4 03:59.4 Tim Danielson 1966

03:59.8 03:59.8 Marty Liquori 1967

03:57.8 04:01.4 Drew Hunter 2016

03:59.3 04:02.9 Reed Brown 2017

03:59.4 04:03.0 Matthew Maton 2015

03:59.4 04:03.0 Grant Fisher 2015

03:59.5 04:03.1 Michael Slagowski 2016

03:59.5 04:03.1 Leo Daschbach 2020

03:59.7 04:03.3 Lukas Verzbicas 2011

7 of the top 10 didn't run a sub4 mile compared to Roger Bannister or Jim Ryun. So, let's stop kidding ourselves.

If you want to see if you can run sub4, do it like Bannister did.

Call me a purist, but I don't like to kid myself (too much, LOL!!)

BSPenn wrote:

I watched a replay of Leo Daschbach's tremendous mile run. He is credited with running a 3:59.71 mile. That's fantastic, but I have to wonder how does that compare to Roger Bannister's sub 4 mile or Jim Ryun's 3:55.3? I mean Bannister ran on a cinder track with relatively primitive shoes. Jim Ryun ran a 3:55.3 on a cinder track too in 1966!! Today we have tracks that are "tuned." Today's runner gets an added advantage 1.5% that Ryan, Liquori, Danielson, and others in the 1960 s never had.

A few years ago I heard a Ted talk by David Epstein. He said that today's athletes aren't faster but technology has made them faster. It got me thinking.

"In 1954, Sir Roger Bannister became the first man to run under four minutes in the mile. Nowadays, college kids do that every year. On rare occasions, a high school kid does it. As of the end of last year, 1,314 men had run under four minutes in the mile, but like Jesse Owens, Sir Roger Bannister ran on soft cinders that stole far more energy from his legs than the synthetic tracks of today. So I consulted biomechanics experts to find out how much slower it is to run on cinders than synthetic tracks, and their consensus that it's one and a half percent slower. " David Epstein, Ted2014.

Look, the sub4 mile is sacred. Like the hour bike ride in cycling. What has technology done to our records?

"Throughout sports, technology has changed the face of performance. In 1972, Eddy Merckx set the record for the longest distance cycled in one hour at 30 miles, 3,774 feet. Now that record improved and improved as bicycles improved and became more aerodynamic all the way until 1996, when it was set at 35 miles, 1,531 feet, nearly five miles farther than Eddy Merckx cycled in 1972. But then in 2000, the International Cycling Union decreed that anyone who wanted to hold that record had to do so with essentially the same equipment that Eddy Merckx used in 1972. Where does the record stand today? 30 miles, 4,657 feet, a grand total of 883 feet farther than Eddy Merckx cycled more than four decades ago. Essentially the entire improvement in this record was due to technology." - David Epstein , Ted2014.

We need to do a similar thing with the mile. If you're going to say your ran a sub4, do it like Bannister, Ryun and Liquori did. Get on a cinder track and run in Bannister's or Ryun's shoes.

I did a few calculations on the sub4 miles run since Webb's 2001 record.

Here's what it looks like (corrected by 1.5%):

Original time Corrected time Name Year

03:55.3 03:55.3 Jim Ryun 1965

03:53.4 03:56.9 Alan Webb 2001

03:59.4 03:59.4 Tim Danielson 1966

03:59.8 03:59.8 Marty Liquori 1967

03:57.8 04:01.4 Drew Hunter 2016

03:59.3 04:02.9 Reed Brown 2017

03:59.4 04:03.0 Matthew Maton 2015

03:59.4 04:03.0 Grant Fisher 2015

03:59.5 04:03.1 Michael Slagowski 2016

03:59.5 04:03.1 Leo Daschbach 2020

03:59.7 04:03.3 Lukas Verzbicas 2011

7 of the top 10 didn't run a sub4 mile compared to Roger Bannister or Jim Ryun. So, let's stop kidding ourselves.

If you want to see if you can run sub4, do it like Bannister did.

Call me a purist, but I don't like to kid myself (too much, LOL!!)

Seyta wrote:

BSPenn wrote:

I watched a replay of Leo Daschbach's tremendous mile run. He is credited with running a 3:59.71 mile. That's fantastic, but I have to wonder how does that compare to Roger Bannister's sub 4 mile or Jim Ryun's 3:55.3? I mean Bannister ran on a cinder track with relatively primitive shoes. Jim Ryun ran a 3:55.3 on a cinder track too in 1966!! Today we have tracks that are "tuned." Today's runner gets an added advantage 1.5% that Ryan, Liquori, Danielson, and others in the 1960 s never had.

A few years ago I heard a Ted talk by David Epstein. He said that today's athletes aren't faster but technology has made them faster. It got me thinking.

"In 1954, Sir Roger Bannister became the first man to run under four minutes in the mile. Nowadays, college kids do that every year. On rare occasions, a high school kid does it. As of the end of last year, 1,314 men had run under four minutes in the mile, but like Jesse Owens, Sir Roger Bannister ran on soft cinders that stole far more energy from his legs than the synthetic tracks of today. So I consulted biomechanics experts to find out how much slower it is to run on cinders than synthetic tracks, and their consensus that it's one and a half percent slower. " David Epstein, Ted2014.

Look, the sub4 mile is sacred. Like the hour bike ride in cycling. What has technology done to our records?

"Throughout sports, technology has changed the face of performance. In 1972, Eddy Merckx set the record for the longest distance cycled in one hour at 30 miles, 3,774 feet. Now that record improved and improved as bicycles improved and became more aerodynamic all the way until 1996, when it was set at 35 miles, 1,531 feet, nearly five miles farther than Eddy Merckx cycled in 1972. But then in 2000, the International Cycling Union decreed that anyone who wanted to hold that record had to do so with essentially the same equipment that Eddy Merckx used in 1972. Where does the record stand today? 30 miles, 4,657 feet, a grand total of 883 feet farther than Eddy Merckx cycled more than four decades ago. Essentially the entire improvement in this record was due to technology." - David Epstein , Ted2014.

We need to do a similar thing with the mile. If you're going to say your ran a sub4, do it like Bannister, Ryun and Liquori did. Get on a cinder track and run in Bannister's or Ryun's shoes.

I did a few calculations on the sub4 miles run since Webb's 2001 record.

Here's what it looks like (corrected by 1.5%):

Original time Corrected time Name Year

03:55.3 03:55.3 Jim Ryun 1965

03:53.4 03:56.9 Alan Webb 2001

03:59.4 03:59.4 Tim Danielson 1966

03:59.8 03:59.8 Marty Liquori 1967

03:57.8 04:01.4 Drew Hunter 2016

03:59.3 04:02.9 Reed Brown 2017

03:59.4 04:03.0 Matthew Maton 2015

03:59.4 04:03.0 Grant Fisher 2015

03:59.5 04:03.1 Michael Slagowski 2016

03:59.5 04:03.1 Leo Daschbach 2020

03:59.7 04:03.3 Lukas Verzbicas 2011

7 of the top 10 didn't run a sub4 mile compared to Roger Bannister or Jim Ryun. So, let's stop kidding ourselves.

If you want to see if you can run sub4, do it like Bannister did.

Call me a purist, but I don't like to kid myself (too much, LOL!!)

If you're a purist, then you should also be eliminating all "professional" races in which these times were set. But unfortunately, that would also eliminate Ryun's 3:55, and leave him with a PR slower by several seconds.

That being said, you may as well say that it's also unfair that there are also modern diets, modern healthcare, and modern training theory to aid today's runners. But that would be stupid. Almost as stupid as complaining about tracks and shoes that haven't existed for decades.

Only an imbecile puts any value in bad shoes and cinder tracks. There is a reason they're gone. The same goes for the training and racing habits used by Ryun and Bannister. Nobody wants a career that short.

BSPenn wrote:

I watched a replay of Leo Daschbach's tremendous mile run. He is credited with running a 3:59.71 mile. That's fantastic, but I have to wonder how does that compare to Roger Bannister's sub 4 mile or Jim Ryun's 3:55.3? I mean Bannister ran on a cinder track with relatively primitive shoes. Jim Ryun ran a 3:55.3 on a cinder track too in 1966!! Today we have tracks that are "tuned." Today's runner gets an added advantage 1.5% that Ryan, Liquori, Danielson, and others in the 1960 s never had.

A few years ago I heard a Ted talk by David Epstein. He said that today's athletes aren't faster but technology has made them faster. It got me thinking.

"In 1954, Sir Roger Bannister became the first man to run under four minutes in the mile. Nowadays, college kids do that every year. On rare occasions, a high school kid does it. As of the end of last year, 1,314 men had run under four minutes in the mile, but like Jesse Owens, Sir Roger Bannister ran on soft cinders that stole far more energy from his legs than the synthetic tracks of today. So I consulted biomechanics experts to find out how much slower it is to run on cinders than synthetic tracks, and their consensus that it's one and a half percent slower. " David Epstein, Ted2014.

Look, the sub4 mile is sacred. Like the hour bike ride in cycling. What has technology done to our records?

"Throughout sports, technology has changed the face of performance. In 1972, Eddy Merckx set the record for the longest distance cycled in one hour at 30 miles, 3,774 feet. Now that record improved and improved as bicycles improved and became more aerodynamic all the way until 1996, when it was set at 35 miles, 1,531 feet, nearly five miles farther than Eddy Merckx cycled in 1972. But then in 2000, the International Cycling Union decreed that anyone who wanted to hold that record had to do so with essentially the same equipment that Eddy Merckx used in 1972. Where does the record stand today? 30 miles, 4,657 feet, a grand total of 883 feet farther than Eddy Merckx cycled more than four decades ago. Essentially the entire improvement in this record was due to technology." - David Epstein , Ted2014.

We need to do a similar thing with the mile. If you're going to say your ran a sub4, do it like Bannister, Ryun and Liquori did. Get on a cinder track and run in Bannister's or Ryun's shoes.

I did a few calculations on the sub4 miles run since Webb's 2001 record.

Here's what it looks like (corrected by 1.5%):

Original time Corrected time Name Year

03:55.3 03:55.3 Jim Ryun 1965

03:53.4 03:56.9 Alan Webb 2001

03:59.4 03:59.4 Tim Danielson 1966

03:59.8 03:59.8 Marty Liquori 1967

03:57.8 04:01.4 Drew Hunter 2016

03:59.3 04:02.9 Reed Brown 2017

03:59.4 04:03.0 Matthew Maton 2015

03:59.4 04:03.0 Grant Fisher 2015

03:59.5 04:03.1 Michael Slagowski 2016

03:59.5 04:03.1 Leo Daschbach 2020

03:59.7 04:03.3 Lukas Verzbicas 2011

7 of the top 10 didn't run a sub4 mile compared to Roger Bannister or Jim Ryun. So, let's stop kidding ourselves.

If you want to see if you can run sub4, do it like Bannister did.

Call me a purist, but I don't like to kid myself (too much, LOL!!)

BSPenn wrote:

I watched a replay of Leo Daschbach's tremendous mile run. He is credited with running a 3:59.71 mile. That's fantastic, but I have to wonder how does that compare to Roger Bannister's sub 4 mile or Jim Ryun's 3:55.3? I mean Bannister ran on a cinder track with relatively primitive shoes. Jim Ryun ran a 3:55.3 on a cinder track too in 1966!! Today we have tracks that are "tuned." Today's runner gets an added advantage 1.5% that Ryan, Liquori, Danielson, and others in the 1960 s never had.

A few years ago I heard a Ted talk by David Epstein. He said that today's athletes aren't faster but technology has made them faster. It got me thinking.

"In 1954, Sir Roger Bannister became the first man to run under four minutes in the mile. Nowadays, college kids do that every year. On rare occasions, a high school kid does it. As of the end of last year, 1,314 men had run under four minutes in the mile, but like Jesse Owens, Sir Roger Bannister ran on soft cinders that stole far more energy from his legs than the synthetic tracks of today. So I consulted biomechanics experts to find out how much slower it is to run on cinders than synthetic tracks, and their consensus that it's one and a half percent slower. " David Epstein, Ted2014.

Look, the sub4 mile is sacred. Like the hour bike ride in cycling. What has technology done to our records?

"Throughout sports, technology has changed the face of performance. In 1972, Eddy Merckx set the record for the longest distance cycled in one hour at 30 miles, 3,774 feet. Now that record improved and improved as bicycles improved and became more aerodynamic all the way until 1996, when it was set at 35 miles, 1,531 feet, nearly five miles farther than Eddy Merckx cycled in 1972. But then in 2000, the International Cycling Union decreed that anyone who wanted to hold that record had to do so with essentially the same equipment that Eddy Merckx used in 1972. Where does the record stand today? 30 miles, 4,657 feet, a grand total of 883 feet farther than Eddy Merckx cycled more than four decades ago. Essentially the entire improvement in this record was due to technology." - David Epstein , Ted2014.

We need to do a similar thing with the mile. If you're going to say your ran a sub4, do it like Bannister, Ryun and Liquori did. Get on a cinder track and run in Bannister's or Ryun's shoes.

I did a few calculations on the sub4 miles run since Webb's 2001 record.

Here's what it looks like (corrected by 1.5%):

Original time Corrected time Name Year

03:55.3 03:55.3 Jim Ryun 1965

03:53.4 03:56.9 Alan Webb 2001

03:59.4 03:59.4 Tim Danielson 1966

03:59.8 03:59.8 Marty Liquori 1967

03:57.8 04:01.4 Drew Hunter 2016

03:59.3 04:02.9 Reed Brown 2017

03:59.4 04:03.0 Matthew Maton 2015

03:59.4 04:03.0 Grant Fisher 2015

03:59.5 04:03.1 Michael Slagowski 2016

03:59.5 04:03.1 Leo Daschbach 2020

03:59.7 04:03.3 Lukas Verzbicas 2011

7 of the top 10 didn't run a sub4 mile compared to Roger Bannister or Jim Ryun. So, let's stop kidding ourselves.

If you want to see if you can run sub4, do it like Bannister did.

Call me a purist, but I don't like to kid myself (too much, LOL!!)