Sara Hall advocates high mileage and intensity in HS- holds up Big 3 as examples

Not sure what statement of mine you think you are disproving?

I said excessively high mileage in high school is bad. The athletes you all listed were presumably running moderate mileage in high school and developed well in college. That supports my argument.

In my statement that you quoted, I was talking about extremely high mileage sub 9:10 HS guys with 59 second 400 speed being set up to fail in college.

Hey Hanson, yeah, that sucks man. If you just trained on your own like we did, wouldn't that be better? But if that's socially unacceptable as I have mentioned earlier, I guess you're stuck as long as you're at that school. The guy posting right after you has the right idea. I'm not positive about the details, so I'm not specifically advocating his exact mileage prescriptions, but the idea is sound: a long-term well-planned system.

One of the problems with schools being in charge is that they also decide your events. Like I said early on, I never ran any sprints. Fortunately not, as it's hard to imagine me not being dead last. Doing something I wasn't terribly competitive at for a few years would have discouraged me about running in general. As a teenager, it's one of the things I was decent at, but then again I was allowed to run 10ks.

For guys who seem physiologically designed for 1500-3k, maybe the high school system works. Jager was mentioned at some point. He's great at 3k/5k. Probably doesn't need 120 a week even as a pro. Half that was likely enough as a teenager. Guys like Brazier, even more so, can have success on a high school team since he's going to be reasonably competitive at 400, 400H, 800, maybe 200 (that's a maybe, but it's high school and he might not be up against Coleman and Lyles).

A bunch of speedwork: isn't that what a true mid-distance runner like him is best off doing? A 600/800 specialist doesn't need to train the same systems in the same way as someone like Meb or Shorter who set ARs at 10000. (Or me, but beyond our best events, the similarity ends!) What you describe from your high school coach may be reasonable training for anything a mile and down. Or, it still is too much speedwork.

Still though, aren't you on your own 8 months of the year? It sounds like it's the same coach for the whole school year, so is there not several months between seasons? I guess if official practice lasts the whole time you're only outside of the system for 3 months of summer. In any case, if you don't toe the line, and the only punishment is being 'off the team', maybe it's not much of a tragedy.

Name of this 2:08 guy?

student of theory wrote:

"Kids these days"

*breaks all the old records*

This. High school are as fast as ever if not faster on average. On the world stage Americans are competing for and winning medals. For some reason a few act like the economic and GDP of our country hinge on winning marathons.

Yeah, you're absolutely correct in your evaluation. He typically forces all the "distance" runners to race the 800m or mile and treats the XC season as nothing more than preparation for track--which I don't agree with. I can see where his approach comes from though. His son is a sub-4 miler at a highly competitive D1 program, and maybe because of that, he believes that the cookie-cutter training regimen will work for all of us. The problem with not "toeing the line" is that I still hope to be scouted by even a smaller running program, and if I don't race the next seasons, my last, I won't have the times to show for it. As with the off-season, I am definitely self-motivated and taking training seriously yet cautiously--I'm gradually building to high 70s or low 80s this summer. I'm one of those guys who can run a lot of mileage at a strong pace relatively easily, but breaks down when faced with high intensity reps.

I also forgot to mention that I like to assume that the high mileage approach proposed by Lydiard works the best for ALL runners, regardless of whether they are mid or long distance. Obviously, a mid-distance runner must specialize and do much more high intensity short reps when the "peaking" phase comes around than a long distance runner, but fundamentally training the aerobic system is important even for the shorter distances.

Sarah Hall doesn't know how to analyze the issue logically. You cannot infer from the training patterns of three elite athletes that theirs is universally the best way to train. You would need far more than three subjects, and to include subjects who trained other ways to serve as controls.

Oh hey hansen,

I'm glad I came back on here to see what everyone was saying. So you're still there. I wasn't sure if you'd graduated and were looking back but you're still in the thick of it. I know I have been advocating the idea of running without the school-sanctioned coach and team. It's what I and a lot of kids did once upon a time, and it worked great for someone like me who wasn't competitive at sprints and mid distances.

There is a downside though. Now, I'm not positive about this but maybe some college coaches could weigh in or there even could be a thread about this specific topic. The impression I'm under is that if you're not part of your school's official team, you're immune to college recruiting. Again, I know less about that than you, I'm sure, so I wonder what the experts say. It may be impossible to get the attention of Wetmore or somebody like that - or any coach even at a relatively unknown school - with road race results.

I was not planning to run in the NCAA and made no attempt to do so. But I do know no coach ever called my house. This was pre-internet, though, so if I was winning 17-and-under at a bunch of 10ks (I actually was, in fact) in a big running area, no one would have known. And no one did know. No tragedy for me, but if I was sitting by the phone on Monday hoping my weekend race got somebody's attention I would have been bummed.

So, I guess you have to get on board. Like I've mentioned earlier, typical mid-D training is great for runner's whose strengths make their ideal events shorter than 5k. Once again, somebody 3 or 4 posts above this mentioned high school runners are faster than ever. Not really true, since they're not breaking Webb's HS mile record every year, but sort of true in a depth sense - at the mile. The US is indeed good at that since US schools train for it and every kid runs for a school . 40mpw with heavy speedwork is great for 800/1000/1500/mile. For true distance events, 60 mpw with limited speedwork may be better.

Although I acknowledge there is a downside to unattached competition as far as recruiting, there is also a downside to running exclusively outside of your ideal range. If you run a great 10k it would have to be in a road race that will likely be ignored by colleges. If you run the 800 you will not put up a time they'll notice since you're not a great mid-D runner. Mediocre mid-D times vs. non-school-affiliated (but decent) distance times. This conundrum makes puts you in a tough spot.

With the internet, maybe the true slow-twitch distance guy such as you (or me if I was 17) does have the option of sending a coach road race results. They can see you're not lying and see via the event's site if the course is USATF certified and timed by a reputable outfit. Would this work, or is any kid not willing to succumb to the coach and all the school's rules immediately removed from consideration? I'm not the one to answer that but, again, there are coaches who lurk on the Board who could possibly offer insight. I feel for you but envy your youth and the road ahead of you....I'm 3 times your age!

ditch the coach wrote:

Although I acknowledge there is a downside to unattached competition as far as recruiting, there is also a downside to running exclusively outside of your ideal range. If you run a great 10k it would have to be in a road race that will likely be ignored by colleges. If you run the 800 you will not put up a time they'll notice since you're not a great mid-D runner. Mediocre mid-D times vs. non-school-affiliated (but decent) distance times. This conundrum makes puts you in a tough spot.

I can't see how anyone can run a 10k time fast enough for college coaches to care about without also being able to run a fast enough 2 mile. Not liking your coaches training is one thing. But the race distance isn't a big deal.

hansen9952 wrote:

I also forgot to mention that I like to assume that the high mileage approach proposed by Lydiard works the best for ALL runners, regardless of whether they are mid or long distance. .

Sure but how many people on this board would talk about how Lydiard is running way too fast on the steady paced runs?

IMO more important to build speed in HS vs doing high mileage if you want to make it as a pro. Can always build mileage/cardio base in college. Speed is much harder to develop later.

fact checker 642572498 wrote:

JamesTheAmateur wrote:

I assume you were being facetious, but Willis absolutely does not have better PRs than the "any of the Big 3."

Webb was faster over 800m, mile, two mile, and 5000m outdoors.

Ritz and Hall were faster over two miles and 5000m outdoors.

But I do agree with your general point that low mileage in high school may have saved Webb, Hall, and Ritz from early burnout

Willis has run nearly a full second faster than Webb in the 1500. 3:29.66 to 3:30.54. Willis' 1500 time is better than Webb's converted mile time. Willis is also faster over 3k. Nobody runs 2 mile.

I'm aware. Hence why I only posted times that Webb would faster in. What do you mean converted mile time? Webb actually ran that mile time. If Willis' 1500 time is better, then he should have also run a faster mile, but he didn't. True about the two mile, but Webb is still faster over 5000. So I'm sure that if Webb committed to the 3000 for a season, he would have a faster PR as well

arandomwalk wrote:

IMO more important to build speed in HS vs doing high mileage if you want to make it as a pro. Can always build mileage/cardio base in college. Speed is much harder to develop later.

And how are you building speed in a way that matters for distance runners that prevents you from doing mileage? But I have seen little evidence that it makes sense for distance guys to do more than like 20-30 mins/week (ie. sprint for 10-15s, jog fo 2-3 mins repeat 8 times) of this type of work. I agree most coaches don't do enough. But that is because they are doing zero.

How much mileage you do in HS depends what your goals are and how talented you are:

1-Do you want to get a scholarship at your choice of college --> run lots of mileage unless you are super talented (like Goucher who ran 40 mpw)

2- Do you want a college coach (at a school you don't really want to go) to help you get admission and no scholarship plus save your wheels for down the road --> run less

The Big 3 were supremely talented and also ran high mileage. What did it get them? Only Ritz had a smooth college experience. But they did enter college with a lot of confidence. Could they have had adequate confidence to progress to what they did later by just being top 10 at Foot Locker and extended their careers/gotten less injured? Deena Kastor did it. I say cut back on the mileage if you have the talent and save the wheels.