Daniels' Workouts Possible?

Fifteen miles of at tempo pace with something like 2-2.5 miles in between? Are you sure that's a Daniels workout?

Pretty sure it's from his latest Daniels Running Formula edition. I remember seeing something like this in there. It is for marathoners seeking a fast time. Meant to be done only once in the buildup (probably 3 or 4 weeks out from goal race) and it also doubles as the long run - totaling 21 miles or so.

Now, is that tempo or maybe faster than MP? You'd have to be in serious shape to burn off fifteen of eighteen miles at ten-mile pace.

Good marathon runners are in serious shape dude! There is also a jogging section in the 2nd edition too, maybe you should read that - sounds like more your speed.

I love it how idiots get on here and bad-mounth runners and coaches and then when they hear a workout that is over their heads they doubt it is real. Did you read the post that Sell did 2 x 6 miles in less than 29:00 for a workout? He isn't even great, just one of the group of marathon runners that are probably in the 25-80 range in the world depending on who is running.

Train Hard, Win Easy, The Kenyan Way is a great book about real hard training by Toby Tanser. I suggest you don't read it, you might cry.

could that be MINUTES rather than miles?

Cerutty Fan wrote:

Good marathon runners are in serious shape dude! There is also a jogging section in the 2nd edition too, maybe you should read that - sounds like more your speed.

I love it how idiots get on here and bad-mounth runners and coaches and then when they hear a workout that is over their heads they doubt it is real. Did you read the post that Sell did 2 x 6 miles in less than 29:00 for a workout? He isn't even great, just one of the group of marathon runners that are probably in the 25-80 range in the world depending on who is running.

Train Hard, Win Easy, The Kenyan Way is a great book about real hard training by Toby Tanser. I suggest you don't read it, you might cry.

It's in the Jack Daniels book, designed for everyday runners that aren't world class. There's nothing incredible about 2 x 6 miles in 29 minutes, it's running 15 miles at tempo pace. It's like saying you maintained 5k pace for 10k; it stretches credibility.

If you know of anyone who has actually done a workout like that, feel free to speak up.

My wife has done this workout.

She averaged about 5:22 per mile for the T pace stuff, and went on to run 2:30:50 about 6 weeks later (5:45 pace)

the pace you guys refer to as "Tempo" is referred to as "Threshold" in the Daniels book. It is about 15-20 seconds faster than marathon pace.

In retrospect, it may have been a little much, but it's not like you just jump right up to a workout like that. she'd done similar but not as long workouts over the previous few months.

dogscalder wrote:

could that be MINUTES rather than miles?

That workout would be ridiculously easy.

Those workouts are from the "elite marathoners" training plan. When Daniels says elite...he means elite. Several of the runners he has coached have had to endure such workouts. But please note it is the peak workout toward which the whole program progresses.

I'm way over the hill and now a humble 2:40 marathoner but have done 3 x 4 miles @ LT pace in preparation for a marathon. This summer on a lark, after looking at Daniels book, I did

4 mile + 4min rest + 3 mile + 3 min rest + 2 mile + 2 min rest + 1 mile (all running at LT pace = sub 5:40/mile for me). It wasn't easy very doable if you are running decent mileage.

I see nothing wrong with that workout...very doable. I have used 3 x 5 miles with some folks I have coached in the past. One athlete did 4 x 5 miles.

Lone Star wrote:

Has anyone attempted the following Jack Daniels' workout and been able to hit it or any thoughts?

2 miles easy +

5 miles tempo, 5 min jog +

4 miles tempo, 4 min jog +

3 miles tempo, 3 min jog +

2 miles tempo, 2 min jog +

1 mile tempo +

2 miles easy

Possible? Probable? Thanks.

The above is basically slightly more than a half marathon, at about half marathon race pace (note that in the new edition, "tempo pace" gets adjusted depending on run duration). Why not just run a half marathon instead (with 3 up and 4 down for a total of 20) ? IMO the above workout is pretty much a race quality effort.

Lone Star how are you bio-mechanics? Daniels formula really good to help efficiency. I think its a win-win.

Thanks for the feedback. I have done sessions of 8 x 2 miles in the past and 3 x 20 min LT pace, but this workout just seemed quite monumental... I just didn't want to set myself up for failure if it was possible or not.

Would you get the same effect running the 5-4-3-2-1 mile "tempos" at marathon pace? Wouldn't Canova suggest MP pace rather than LT pace?

Thoughts?

Daniels second edition has a few type-o's in it and I believe this workout was meant to read marathon pace and not tempo pace. Especially since Daniels puts a cap on his marathon pace distance of 15 miles, so this would make much more sense.

The workout is way too stressful as written and you would likel leave your race out on the roads in training.

As Dick mentioned above, that is threshold pace, not marathon pace. I've done that workout a few times and can say, without hesitation, that its the hardest workout I've ever finished. It deserves to be well placed in the training cycle with plenty of time to recover.

you're right, there are lots of typos...but this is not one of them.

anytime you see a Daniels workout with that much rest between intervals (1 min rest per 5 min of pace running) you can bet the pace to be run is Threshold.

A Daniels workout with that much running at MP would probably not have any rest at all, and would probably have a mile or two at LT pace injected in there somewhere.

Pete, Thanks for clarifying! I just assumed it to be a typo because of how nicely the 15 miles fit with his previous editions cap of 15 miles at marathon pace. I do realise that doing 15 miles at tempo pace (hour race pace) is doable because it's broken up. Sort of like people doing 10 x 800 meters at 5k pace. More volume is done because it's broken up. I agree it must be done with a lot of rest around it as it is quite stressful.

Another thing I notced was that these workouts also placed time limits of sorts on them. It assumes the runner's T pace is 4:45 to 5 minutes and said to adjust accordingly for slower paces. So the 5 miles at T followed by 5 minutes for someone such as myself with a T pace of 6 minutes would be more like 4 miles (24 to 25 minutes) followed by 5 minutes easy. Then maybe 3 to 3.25,(18 to 20 minutes) and so on.....

So this workout for a slower runner would not be 15 miles at T pace, but would still be 70 to 80 minutes at T pace. That would be about 12 to 13 miles for me at 6 minute pace.

Thanks again for the clarification!

It's good to hear from people in the know. Thanks!

I had thought of trying to ask Jack about these myself in an e-mail, but never got around to it.

Gilmore,

What workouts have you found created the best results or you think had the greatest training effect for a marathon? Also, do you prefer racing to supplement some of the workouts?