NY Times op-ed: "Jogging Has Always Excluded Black People"

someofmybestfriends wrote:

Not gonna be divided and conquered wrote:

I am of European descent and both my wife and I come from blue collar families. None of our parents have more than a high school education and both our fathers worked low paying jobs in factories. We both went to public schools, which of course are offered to every single person in America. We worked hard and got into college. We then worked our way through college and accumulated a large student loan debt. After obtaining our college degrees we pursed careers in our fields. We then worked very hard to pay back those loans and provide for our family. Therefore we had no more institutional advantage than any other person in this nation. Do I believe there are horrible racist people? Yes I do and they come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. It’s time to stop making sweeping generalizations about people and instead work hard and be good people.

You seem like a decent person, but the idea that you are of European descent and do not have any "more institutional advantage than any other person in this nation." is just fallacious. Learn the history of this nation. It doesn't make you are a bad person because you have certain advantages. What you do with those advantages is far more important in making that determination. But first, you need to look yourself in the mirror and be honest about the country you live in and where your various identities locate you within its hierarchy.

janitor wrote:

Star wrote:

I'm mostly offended that they keep switching between the word "jogging" and "running " throughout the article.

The OP's subject line says "jogging".

His first sentence he writes that blacks don't have equal access to "running".

The embedded article title says "Running" has always excluded black people.

Click the link and the headline is "Jogging" has always excluded black people.

From the article:

Free! Easy! Relaxing! That’s how "jogging" was marketed in the late 1960s,

But history shows how untrue that is, and how long the sport of "running" has maintained this fiction.

What the hell?

Are they jogging or running?

We have threads and threads devoted to the distinction.

I think this is the point everybody who is not a racist here is missing (and let's face it, there are some racist trolls in this thread, which I'm always sad to see in LetsRun. But its the Internet--what can you do!)

The author is really talking about the "culture" of Jogging. At one point she notes that there are African American track stars. So she isn't really talking about track and competitive running (which in my experience--I'm white, and middle class, so I recognize that's a bias, but still) is one of the most diverse sports in the world. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I love it--Japan, Mexico, Kenya, Eastern Europe and of course the U.S. all have real stars. Compare that to a whole host of sports, and maybe only soccer is more diverse.

As long as the author is talking about the culture of jogging, I think she's right. Since I think jogging is good for everybody, and also since I think it leads to more interest in track and competitive road running, I wish that publications had reached out for a more diverse audience, I do think that African American joggers in many neighborhoods are regarded with suspicion, and the recent murder highlights this. I think the whole fitness culture--from jogging to more recently cross-fit--is marketed to whites. I think probably this is a perception thing, that, lets face it, is based on racist assumptions about what whites could afford and what blacks can afford. I think that is wrong, and furthermore leaving a lot of money on the table.

But I don't think "jogging" and serious running and track should be painted with the same brush. To the degree that the author does this, she is wrong,

rg2 wrote:

This is the nonsense that people are trying to spread. You don’t get put in a hierarchy based on race in America. Go around to any low income school (which by the way, gets extra funding and resources and typically pays teachers more to get higher quality) and look at the kids of several races piss away their opportunity to make something of themselves. Because it all comes down to their home life. If blacks, or any minority, would stop making excuses, like so and so have advantages, or we can’t do this because of our color, and started being parents that taught the importance of education, work ethic, being respectful, not just to people that they think respects you back, but to all people, then they could change their family legacies. But the fact is, it’s much easier to cry racism, or we are at a disadvantage then to say, we didn’t work hard enough, we didn’t parent well enough.

someofmybestfriends wrote:

rg2 wrote:

This is the nonsense that people are trying to spread. You don’t get put in a hierarchy based on race in America. Go around to any low income school (which by the way, gets extra funding and resources and typically pays teachers more to get higher quality) and look at the kids of several races piss away their opportunity to make something of themselves. Because it all comes down to their home life. If blacks, or any minority, would stop making excuses, like so and so have advantages, or we can’t do this because of our color, and started being parents that taught the importance of education, work ethic, being respectful, not just to people that they think respects you back, but to all people, then they could change their family legacies. But the fact is, it’s much easier to cry racism, or we are at a disadvantage then to say, we didn’t work hard enough, we didn’t parent well enough.

When you calm down, if you care, be a little introspective. Ask yourself how your being a white male (maybe straight, I don't know), perhaps well educated and financially secure, among other things impacts your position in the society at large. You seem like the type for whom such as exercise might be pretty unsettling, but if you can gut it out, it might prove useful. You don't have to report your findings to anyone. Just be honest with yourself. As for all that other stuff about black people, you might want to have that conversation with your black friends (though I'm going to guess you don't have many based on what you have to say about black people) Good luck!

Armstronglivs wrote:

Lefty but eh? wrote:

I think this article is pretty poorly constructed. And this is coming from someone who believes that the USA has some pretty fundamental issues it needs to solve about race. In a nutshell, the article's problem is that rather than just exploring the barriers to jogging/running in America, the author Petrzela tries to go for a journalistic homerun and blame the sport for this.

Point 1: Not Understanding Causes

The article says running has excluded African-Amerians, but then proceeds to list societal/nationwide issues for why this is the case, not any ways "running" has excluded them. E.g. While surburban whites have access to nice parks and trails, predominantly black areas in cities often have less green space but also less safe areas to train. That isn't a running problem, that is a national problem - if you don't have enough parks and safe places for people in cities to exercise having a super duper progressive jogging club isn't going to do anything to help that.

It also brings up things like the Arbery shooting, or the shooting of two black men out jogging by a white supremacist in Salt Lake City 1980, because they were "race mixing" and jogging with two white women. Going out on a wild limb, but looking at the pictures of the rather large lumps that were the two dudes who shot Ahmaud Arbery, gonna say they weren't a part of the local running club. And with the SLC 1980 shooting - it was literally white people running with black people. What was the running community meant to do to stop a white supremacist from gunning down some joggers? Give out handguns for joggers to take with them.

Is recreational jogging predominantly white? Yes. Are the examples Petrzela brings up in the article tragic and unfair, and do they contribute to making African-Americans not want to take up jogging? Yes. But what control does the running community possess of inner city urban planning and white supremacist bozos with shot guns?

Part 2 - Poor use of evidence/Lack of it

"Black people have not only been excluded from the sport — one survey by Running USA found under 10 percent (link) of frequent runners identify as African-American — they’ve also been relentlessly depicted as a threat to legitimate, white joggers."

This one sentence has three issues with it.

First, is a poor/potentially disingenous command of statistics. That stat "under 10% of runners" are black sounds pretty damning, but the most recent US census shows that black and African-Americans make up only 12.6% of the population. The way Petrzela puts it, that's actually pretty close to representative, especially compared to other sports where there is both overrepresentation and underrepresentation of African-Americans. E.g. NFL which is 68% black, 74% of the NBA, compared to say the NHL *which is 97% white,* NASCAR which has only ever had 7 black drivers, or cycling - I can't find US based stats, but in London where 1/3 of the pop is non-white, only 6% of female cyclists are non-white and 12% of non-white males. This 10% figure is used as a slam dunk, but if contextualised with the actual demographic makeup of the USA makes a lot of sense.

Second, Petrzela provides a link to support her "under 10%" claim. I followed that link and the headline was not what I expected - "BLACK RUNNERS ARE CHANGING THE FACE OF THE SPORT: More African-Americans now tackling marathons, half marathons, and 5ks, bucking past trends." The article gives the "under 10%" stat that Petrzela refers to - it's actually 8%. However it also says that 8% figure is a 1.6% increase on participation 2011-2016. That means in 2011 participation was 6.4%; the jump to 8% represents a net increase in participation of 25% in just 5 years! The article goes on to tell how black participation in the NYC Marathon *tripled* in just under three years. In the Atlanta Track Club, black participation has risen from 12% to 17%.

The article proceeds to show all the different running groups existing and new that have been a part of this surge. One reason given by a club founder was the high profile of African-American distance runners on the pro scene, a claim which seems to not gel with other claims made by Petrzela. As already pointed out by other posters, African-Americans have performed very strongly, multiple years making up the majority of the top 5 marathon/10k times in the country. Again, Petrzela's attempts to use this as a cudgel is a) not that statistically accurate and b) totally misrepresenting the article she lifted it from.

The third issue - is what does this mean?? "they’ve also been relentlessly depicted as a threat to legitimate, white joggers." She does not expand on this, she does not give examples. I recognize that this is a newspaper op-ed not a PhD thesis, but it is a pretty bold and important claim to just leave hanging there unsubstantiated.

I could go on, but contrary to what this long post implies, I do have a life I should live.

Tl;dr this article really frustrates me because there are very legitimate reasons that could be explored to increase participation in running by African-Americans, but from a rhetorical and evidence standpoint this article is a tire fire and it's going to generate a bunch of clicks and due to its poor writing do nothing to actually help the situation.

Well researched, but I am picking you are white - like all the other commenters I have seen here. Don't you wonder why there are no black joggers responding and agreeing with you?

janitor wrote:

Star wrote:

I'm mostly offended that they keep switching between the word "jogging" and "running " throughout the article.

The OP's subject line says "jogging".

His first sentence he writes that blacks don't have equal access to "running".

The embedded article title says "Running" has always excluded black people.

Click the link and the headline is "Jogging" has always excluded black people.

From the article:

Free! Easy! Relaxing! That’s how "jogging" was marketed in the late 1960s,

But history shows how untrue that is, and how long the sport of "running" has maintained this fiction.

What the hell?

Are they jogging or running?

We have threads and threads devoted to the distinction.

I think this is the point everybody who is not a racist here is missing (and let's face it, there are some racist trolls in this thread, which I'm always sad to see in LetsRun. But its the Internet--what can you do!)

The author is really talking about the "culture" of Jogging. At one point she notes that there are African American track stars. So she isn't really talking about track and competitive running (which in my experience--I'm white, and middle class, so I recognize that's a bias, but still) is one of the most diverse sports in the world. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I love it--Japan, Mexico, Kenya, Eastern Europe and of course the U.S. all have real stars. Compare that to a whole host of sports, and maybe only soccer is more diverse.

As long as the author is talking about the culture of jogging, I think she's right. Since I think jogging is good for everybody, and also since I think it leads to more interest in track and competitive road running, I wish that publications had reached out for a more diverse audience, I do think that African American joggers in many neighborhoods are regarded with suspicion, and the recent murder highlights this. I think the whole fitness culture--from jogging to more recently cross-fit--is marketed to whites. I think probably this is a perception thing, that, lets face it, is based on racist assumptions about what whites could afford and what blacks can afford. I think that is wrong, and furthermore leaving a lot of money on the table.

But I don't think "jogging" and serious running and track should be painted with the same brush. To the degree that the author does this, she is wrong,

african American Mid D wrote:

I'm an African American male, I don't run much anymore (more into lifting these days).

Growing up I started running track at an early age (5th grade if i remember correctly). I excelled at the 800, 1500, 3,000m and eventual ended up running the 800M/1500m on scholarship for a D1 university.

My background is fairly different from most African Americans my father was a doctor and mother was a successful business woman, I grew up in a fairly affluent (mostly white) town. and my parents encouraged me to do a sport that wasn't basketball, football, etc.

I will say growing up there was exactly 1 time where i was stopped for running due to the color of my skin (during college), and nothing came of it other than I told the officer that I was out on a run for my summer training. I will say that my experience is not the norm for most African Americans purely because of my socio-economic status (that I completely am grateful to my parents for giving me the opportunity to have). The large majority of my friends are white, although i do have friends that are Mexican, African American, Asian etc. The majority of my African American friends are people i met through track, and guess what? they are lower-income sprinters. They could easily be better than me at the 800m or 1500m but they grew up in an impoverished place where it is not SAFE for them to go on a 2 mil, 5 mile, or 10 mile run, so naturally they gravitated towards the 100m or 200m to help with sports that it was safe for them to play.

I think the "black people jogging in America" article isn't necessarily painting the full picture. There are always going to be discrepancies in who participates in sports based on resources available. You could make the same article about golf, swimming, lacrosse, tennis etc. All of these sports lack African Americans. It's not because they can't play, no one is physically stopping them, but the large majority of African Americans are POOR and cannot afford to play golf, can't afford to lacrosse, can't afford to play tennis, and similarly cannot afford to go jogging in safe places (on the average).

So yes in a way i think there is some truth that most African Americans are not going to willingly go out and just start jogging for no reasons, but the bigger societal issue is income disparity in America and how that came to be/how to fix it, and both of those topics are part of a much larger discussion much more important than "jogging is unfair to African Americans"