This thread was deleted by a volunteer moderator. I certainly don't want a thread this big deleted so I've restored. THat being said, this thread has served it's purpose. I've closed it to new posts.
We have a new 2024 vaccine thread here. New people don't need to try to wade through 20,000 posts to figure out what is going on.
Not possible. Humility is not in the playbook or, frankly, brain…
Frankly it's childish….
Especially rich coming from you.
Pretty simple. “While we believe the vast majority of people should’ve been vaccinated and benefitted immensely from the vaccines, we respect your choice, as a low risk person, to remain unvaccinated so long as you adhered to the community health guidelines of masking, testing, and quarantining if sick. We accept that your natural immunity, acquired through, perhaps, multiple infections is equivalent to vax-induced immunity as the research has borne out and numerous scientists and health authorities have attested to. We apologize if we mocked and ridiculed you, and we have remorse for not advocating for doctors who, with the patient’s consent, attempted to administer possibly life-saving protocols before the vaccines were widely available. Finally, even, as we still believe they are outliers, we believe there are people who have been severely vax injured, like your friend, that that story is absolutely true as you’ve presented it, and we are sorry.”
Humilty and contrition not your strong suit. I believe you are smart but very unwise, which is very typical of a 33-year old know it all.
Not possible. Humility is not in the playbook or, frankly, brain…
Multiple clear explanations of why vaccines work on this last page. You and yolos just spam the same stuff in response OR change subject drastically rather than actually debate the facts.
Frankly it's childish and suggests you don't have a firm grasp of the facts or logic.
You’re having a very rough week. TGIF. Am I right?
Pretty simple. “While we believe the vast majority of people should’ve been vaccinated and benefitted immensely from the vaccines, we respect your choice, as a low risk person, to remain unvaccinated so long as you adhered to the community health guidelines of masking, testing, and quarantining if sick. We accept that your natural immunity, acquired through, perhaps, multiple infections is equivalent to vax-induced immunity as the research has borne out and numerous scientists and health authorities have attested to. We apologize if we mocked and ridiculed you, and we have remorse for not advocating for doctors who, with the patient’s consent, attempted to administer possibly life-saving protocols before the vaccines were widely available. Finally, even, as we still believe they are outliers, we believe there are people who have been severely vax injured, like your friend, that that story is absolutely true as you’ve presented it, and we are sorry.”
Humilty and contrition not your strong suit. I believe you are smart but very unwise, which is very typical of a 33-year old know it all.
Most of what you say there is wrong. I don't agree with that at all.
If it makes you happy to imagine me saying all that, go ahead, but please stop attempting to disagree with the evidence on vaccines, then changing the subject when the topic gets remotely quantitative.
Again, deadliness is the product of IFR and the number of persons infected.
Omicron was much more contagious than the flu and ultimately resulted in about 3 times as many US deaths as the most severe flu outbreak of the past 15 years because so many people were infected.
For some reason those deaths don't count.
I can't believe we are re-litigating vaccine efficacy with a paper from almost 18 months ago.
"I didn't die so it's meaningless" is the level of intellectual abstraction possible in their brains. I don't want to be harsh be the continued, never-ending insistence that their survival means anything in the context of 1M is just extremely odd.
“While we believe the vast majority of people should’ve been vaccinated and benefitted immensely from the vaccines, we respect your choice, as a low risk person, to remain unvaccinated so long as you adhered to the community health guidelines of masking, testing, and quarantining if sick.
respecting your choice = you are free from judgement or feedback / forcing your employer to accept your poor decision making? correct?
We accept that your natural immunity, acquired through, perhaps, multiple infections is equivalent to vax-induced immunity as the research has borne out and numerous scientists and health authorities have attested to.
why must we accept something that has little data to support it? especially as strains mutate?
We apologize if we mocked and ridiculed you, and we have remorse for not advocating for doctors who, with the patient’s consent, attempted to administer possibly life-saving protocols before the vaccines were widely available. Finally, even, as we still believe they are outliers, we believe there are people who have been severely vax injured, like your friend, that that story is absolutely true as you’ve presented it, and we are sorry.”
crowing about one's poor decision making and quantitative skills makes you open to criticism... don't be soft
no one denies vaccine complications exist, it's why we have clinical trials, we deny the implication they are more frequent than measured or that their presence means the risks outweigh the benefits of vaccination for all populations.
Will you provide evidence for any of your assertions? Will you engage with any evidence we have provided?
“While we believe the vast majority of people should’ve been vaccinated and benefitted immensely from the vaccines, we respect your choice, as a low risk person, to remain unvaccinated so long as you adhered to the community health guidelines of masking, testing, and quarantining if sick.
respecting your choice = you are free from judgement or feedback / forcing your employer to accept your poor decision making? correct?
We accept that your natural immunity, acquired through, perhaps, multiple infections is equivalent to vax-induced immunity as the research has borne out and numerous scientists and health authorities have attested to.
why must we accept something that has little data to support it? especially as strains mutate?
We apologize if we mocked and ridiculed you, and we have remorse for not advocating for doctors who, with the patient’s consent, attempted to administer possibly life-saving protocols before the vaccines were widely available. Finally, even, as we still believe they are outliers, we believe there are people who have been severely vax injured, like your friend, that that story is absolutely true as you’ve presented it, and we are sorry.”
crowing about one's poor decision making and quantitative skills makes you open to criticism... don't be soft
no one denies vaccine complications exist, it's why we have clinical trials, we deny the implication they are more frequent than measured or that their presence means the risks outweigh the benefits of vaccination for all populations.
Will you provide evidence for any of your assertions? Will you engage with any evidence we have provided?
You’ve been provided evidence time and time again on this thread. You either refuse to accept it or are too stupid to understand it. “Evidence” you have provided has been refuted and shown to be misinformation every time. Don’t blame others for your shortcomings.
You had a bad week. Take the L and move along. 👍
Meanwhile, I’ll take this time to run a victory lap. 🇺🇸🏃♂️🇺🇸
Pretty simple. “While we believe the vast majority of people should’ve been vaccinated and benefitted immensely from the vaccines, we respect your choice, as a low risk person, to remain unvaccinated so long as you adhered to the community health guidelines of masking, testing, and quarantining if sick. We accept that your natural immunity, acquired through, perhaps, multiple infections is equivalent to vax-induced immunity as the research has borne out and numerous scientists and health authorities have attested to. We apologize if we mocked and ridiculed you, and we have remorse for not advocating for doctors who, with the patient’s consent, attempted to administer possibly life-saving protocols before the vaccines were widely available. Finally, even, as we still believe they are outliers, we believe there are people who have been severely vax injured, like your friend, that that story is absolutely true as you’ve presented it, and we are sorry.”
Humilty and contrition not your strong suit. I believe you are smart but very unwise, which is very typical of a 33-year old know it all.
Most of what you say there is wrong. I don't agree with that at all.
If it makes you happy to imagine me saying all that, go ahead, but please stop attempting to disagree with the evidence on vaccines, then changing the subject when the topic gets remotely quantitative.
Not once have I disagreed with the “evidence on vaccines,” other than to say they very much have their shortcomings as well, but as usual you guys would mischaracterize with your myopic, narrow dogma.
I simply gave you an example of how you might conduct yourself, and maybe, like a Chris Cuomo or Don Lemon, maybe you would get someone, anyone to take you seriously. But you can’t and won’t. So be it. Yolos calls you Mr. Irrelevant, which is funny because it’s so very true.
Be my guest, go take your FLIRT variant vaccine, even though it’s not ready and won’t be available until the virus has mutated past it once again, since you’ll have the evidence you think you need. You, Harambro (plural) are comical, just how serious you take yourself.
Most of what you say there is wrong. I don't agree with that at all.
If it makes you happy to imagine me saying all that, go ahead, but please stop attempting to disagree with the evidence on vaccines, then changing the subject when the topic gets remotely quantitative.
Not once have I disagreed with the “evidence on vaccines,” other than to say they very much have their shortcomings as well, but as usual you guys would mischaracterize with your myopic, narrow dogma.
I simply gave you an example of how you might conduct yourself, and maybe, like a Chris Cuomo or Don Lemon, maybe you would get someone, anyone to take you seriously. But you can’t and won’t. So be it. Yolos calls you Mr. Irrelevant, which is funny because it’s so very true.
Be my guest, go take your FLIRT variant vaccine, even though it’s not ready and won’t be available until the virus has mutated past it once again, since you’ll have the evidence you think you need. You, Harambro (plural) are comical, just how serious you take yourself.
Well you certainly have disagreed with the evidence.
1) The evidence shows the vaccine is a net positive for all age groups for which the vaccine is approved.
2) The evidence shows that vaccine-driven immunity is broader and more durable to strain evolution than infection-driven immunity
Have you ever, once, taken a step back and asked yourself, “just what in the hell am I actually arguing about?” Have you pondered the forest and not the trees? What are we actually talking about here?
You believe very strongly in the vaccines and think everyone should’ve gotten three iterations, the original series and the booster. You’ve even said yourself that, because of the protection afforded by the three shots, people no longer need any more boosters if they so choose. Literally your words, that the new boosters really are reserved for the riskiest groups, not to thwart serious outcomes so much as to just prevent being sick, but really both.
But the booster was available well, well over three years ago. Even then, the FDA said it really was recommended for, wait for it, the riskiest groups:
So, here we are some 2 1/2 years later and you’re trying to relitigate the past? You’re still trying to convince people that three shots are better than natural immunity and DanM single-handedly killed 300,000 people, along with Djokovic of course, and that you’re not wrong. You’re never wrong.
But, who cares? Vax-induced or natural immunity or both, Covid, for all intents and purposes, ended over 30 months ago with Omicron. Yes, it’s still out there on the periphery, but nobody is left to persuade one way or the other. Most people aren’t going to get even remotely ill, and we are still variant chasing (and perpetuating) for the high risk patient who still wants a boost.
So why are you still talking? I’m serious. Why are you still talking?
Have you ever, once, taken a step back and asked yourself, “just what in the hell am I actually arguing about?” Have you pondered the forest and not the trees? What are we actually talking about here?
You believe very strongly in the vaccines and think everyone should’ve gotten three iterations, the original series and the booster. You’ve even said yourself that, because of the protection afforded by the three shots, people no longer need any more boosters if they so choose. Literally your words, that the new boosters really are reserved for the riskiest groups, not to thwart serious outcomes so much as to just prevent being sick, but really both.
But the booster was available well, well over three years ago. Even then, the FDA said it really was recommended for, wait for it, the riskiest groups:
So, here we are some 2 1/2 years later and you’re trying to relitigate the past? You’re still trying to convince people that three shots are better than natural immunity and DanM single-handedly killed 300,000 people, along with Djokovic of course, and that you’re not wrong. You’re never wrong.
But, who cares? Vax-induced or natural immunity or both, Covid, for all intents and purposes, ended over 30 months ago with Omicron. Yes, it’s still out there on the periphery, but nobody is left to persuade one way or the other. Most people aren’t going to get even remotely ill, and we are still variant chasing (and perpetuating) for the high risk patient who still wants a boost.
So why are you still talking? I’m serious. Why are you still talking?
Could you response to Harambe's two questions?
No one cares what you think the booster recommendations should have been. You can see what the current recommendations are:
Things change as we get new info. Looking back and saying HA THINGS WERE DIFFERENT 2 YEARS AGO... is just giving credit to guiding agencies for adapting to new data.
Have you ever, once, taken a step back and asked yourself, “just what in the hell am I actually arguing about?” Have you pondered the forest and not the trees? What are we actually talking about here?
You believe very strongly in the vaccines and think everyone should’ve gotten three iterations, the original series and the booster. You’ve even said yourself that, because of the protection afforded by the three shots, people no longer need any more boosters if they so choose. Literally your words, that the new boosters really are reserved for the riskiest groups, not to thwart serious outcomes so much as to just prevent being sick, but really both.
But the booster was available well, well over three years ago. Even then, the FDA said it really was recommended for, wait for it, the riskiest groups:
So, here we are some 2 1/2 years later and you’re trying to relitigate the past? You’re still trying to convince people that three shots are better than natural immunity and DanM single-handedly killed 300,000 people, along with Djokovic of course, and that you’re not wrong. You’re never wrong.
But, who cares? Vax-induced or natural immunity or both, Covid, for all intents and purposes, ended over 30 months ago with Omicron. Yes, it’s still out there on the periphery, but nobody is left to persuade one way or the other. Most people aren’t going to get even remotely ill, and we are still variant chasing (and perpetuating) for the high risk patient who still wants a boost.
So why are you still talking? I’m serious. Why are you still talking?
Ok sure. I'll agree to stop arguing with you if you agree to the following:
1) The 3-shot series was safe, effective, and 'worth-it' for every group for which it was approved.
2) The 3 shot series provides at least equivalent immunity to infection (I think it provides much better, but I'll compromise in these peace talks)
3) 300k+ Americans died who could have been saved by the vaccine.
Have you ever, once, taken a step back and asked yourself, “just what in the hell am I actually arguing about?” Have you pondered the forest and not the trees? What are we actually talking about here?
You believe very strongly in the vaccines and think everyone should’ve gotten three iterations, the original series and the booster. You’ve even said yourself that, because of the protection afforded by the three shots, people no longer need any more boosters if they so choose. Literally your words, that the new boosters really are reserved for the riskiest groups, not to thwart serious outcomes so much as to just prevent being sick, but really both.
But the booster was available well, well over three years ago. Even then, the FDA said it really was recommended for, wait for it, the riskiest groups:
So, here we are some 2 1/2 years later and you’re trying to relitigate the past? You’re still trying to convince people that three shots are better than natural immunity and DanM single-handedly killed 300,000 people, along with Djokovic of course, and that you’re not wrong. You’re never wrong.
But, who cares? Vax-induced or natural immunity or both, Covid, for all intents and purposes, ended over 30 months ago with Omicron. Yes, it’s still out there on the periphery, but nobody is left to persuade one way or the other. Most people aren’t going to get even remotely ill, and we are still variant chasing (and perpetuating) for the high risk patient who still wants a boost.
So why are you still talking? I’m serious. Why are you still talking?
Ok sure. I'll agree to stop arguing with you if you agree to the following:
1) The 3-shot series was safe, effective, and 'worth-it' for every group for which it was approved.
2) The 3 shot series provides at least equivalent immunity to infection (I think it provides much better, but I'll compromise in these peace talks)
3) 300k+ Americans died who could have been saved by the vaccine.
Have you ever, once, taken a step back and asked yourself, “just what in the hell am I actually arguing about?” Have you pondered the forest and not the trees? What are we actually talking about here?
You believe very strongly in the vaccines and think everyone should’ve gotten three iterations, the original series and the booster. You’ve even said yourself that, because of the protection afforded by the three shots, people no longer need any more boosters if they so choose. Literally your words, that the new boosters really are reserved for the riskiest groups, not to thwart serious outcomes so much as to just prevent being sick, but really both.
But the booster was available well, well over three years ago. Even then, the FDA said it really was recommended for, wait for it, the riskiest groups:
So, here we are some 2 1/2 years later and you’re trying to relitigate the past? You’re still trying to convince people that three shots are better than natural immunity and DanM single-handedly killed 300,000 people, along with Djokovic of course, and that you’re not wrong. You’re never wrong.
But, who cares? Vax-induced or natural immunity or both, Covid, for all intents and purposes, ended over 30 months ago with Omicron. Yes, it’s still out there on the periphery, but nobody is left to persuade one way or the other. Most people aren’t going to get even remotely ill, and we are still variant chasing (and perpetuating) for the high risk patient who still wants a boost.
So why are you still talking? I’m serious. Why are you still talking?
What really upsets Harambro, and the reason he keeps relitigating the past, is that he can’t get over that Omicron ended the pandemic long ago, not the vaccines. Everything leads back to this. Therefore, he understates the value of natural immunity, overstates the value of the vaccines and ignores the negative impact of the vaccines.
Have you ever, once, taken a step back and asked yourself, “just what in the hell am I actually arguing about?” Have you pondered the forest and not the trees? What are we actually talking about here?
You believe very strongly in the vaccines and think everyone should’ve gotten three iterations, the original series and the booster. You’ve even said yourself that, because of the protection afforded by the three shots, people no longer need any more boosters if they so choose. Literally your words, that the new boosters really are reserved for the riskiest groups, not to thwart serious outcomes so much as to just prevent being sick, but really both.
But the booster was available well, well over three years ago. Even then, the FDA said it really was recommended for, wait for it, the riskiest groups:
So, here we are some 2 1/2 years later and you’re trying to relitigate the past? You’re still trying to convince people that three shots are better than natural immunity and DanM single-handedly killed 300,000 people, along with Djokovic of course, and that you’re not wrong. You’re never wrong.
But, who cares? Vax-induced or natural immunity or both, Covid, for all intents and purposes, ended over 30 months ago with Omicron. Yes, it’s still out there on the periphery, but nobody is left to persuade one way or the other. Most people aren’t going to get even remotely ill, and we are still variant chasing (and perpetuating) for the high risk patient who still wants a boost.
So why are you still talking? I’m serious. Why are you still talking?
Ok sure. I'll agree to stop arguing with you if you agree to the following:
1) The 3-shot series was safe, effective, and 'worth-it' for every group for which it was approved.
2) The 3 shot series provides at least equivalent immunity to infection (I think it provides much better, but I'll compromise in these peace talks)
3) 300k+ Americans died who could have been saved by the vaccine.
I really don’t know why I’m still playing, I really don’t, as I’ll ask again, why are you still talking? You’re trying to litigate 2021 all over again. Here’s how I will answer this:
1.) The 3-shot series was effective for every group for which it was approved. “Worth it” is more subjective, as I would say it was very worth it for the most risky groups but probably not worth it for people like myself and the least risky cohorts. A net positive, sure, but that’s really meaningless.
Safe? Sorry brother, I will never get there. I’ve seen two many serious cardiac injuries and a couple deaths right in the wake of the three-shot series. My buddy is real, his condition is serious and real. The data you cling to is very incomplete in my opinion and experience. The jury is still very much out there too. Agree to disagree. No amount of gesticulating by you will get an agreement from me. You can waste your time trying.
2.) I would agree the three shot series provides equivalent immunity to infection. Probably better if we’re talking short-lived antibodies, which wane, and worse if we’re talking cell-mediated immunity, which is longer lasting. I’ll accept equivalent, but I would say natural immunity, especially with Delta AND subsequent strains is at least as equivalent as the three shot series and probably better. I really believe every subsequent booster shot is, eventually, self defeating and negative efficacy is a thing and we’ve witnessed that. But, for the sake of this argument, we are talking about three shots versus natural infection, so, yes, I’ll accept equivalent, though maybe unnecessary for many people.
3.) Yeah, I’ll buy your 300,000 number and say it’s probably greater. The vast majority of these were very, very high risk people though and absolutely should’ve been vaccinated. But I think a great many more people could’ve been saved from death or even severe illness with some rudimentary protocols implemented by the likes of a Dr. Richard Urso, which is why that 300,000 number is so disingenuous. Urso, like so many, was readily dismissed as a quack, a dissident, a grifter, when he could’ve helped so, so many people.
So, there you go. What does any of this have to do with 2024 and FLIRT, lol. You, like so many in public health, have alienated so, so many people and so unnecessarily too. The lack of humility, the contempt, the narcissism, and the need to relitigate incessantly, exacerbated by media simpletons, really did society a disservice.
What really upsets Harambro, and the reason he keeps relitigating the past, is that he can’t get over that Omicron ended the pandemic long ago, not the vaccines. Everything leads back to this. Therefore, he understates the value of natural immunity, overstates the value of the vaccines and ignores the negative impact of the vaccines.
At this point, he is Mr. Irrelevant.
That’s actually true, he’s stuck in the pre-Omicron era. Even if he’s right, so am I. The conversation was over 30 months ago.
Ok sure. I'll agree to stop arguing with you if you agree to the following:
1) The 3-shot series was safe, effective, and 'worth-it' for every group for which it was approved.
2) The 3 shot series provides at least equivalent immunity to infection (I think it provides much better, but I'll compromise in these peace talks)
3) 300k+ Americans died who could have been saved by the vaccine.
I really don’t know why I’m still playing, I really don’t, as I’ll ask again, why are you still talking? You’re trying to litigate 2021 all over again. Here’s how I will answer this:
1.) The 3-shot series was effective for every group for which it was approved. “Worth it” is more subjective, as I would say it was very worth it for the most risky groups but probably not worth it for people like myself and the least risky cohorts. A net positive, sure, but that’s really meaningless.
Safe? Sorry brother, I will never get there. I’ve seen two many serious cardiac injuries and a couple deaths right in the wake of the three-shot series. My buddy is real, his condition is serious and real. The data you cling to is very incomplete in my opinion and experience. The jury is still very much out there too. Agree to disagree. No amount of gesticulating by you will get an agreement from me. You can waste your time trying.
2.) I would agree the three shot series provides equivalent immunity to infection. Probably better if we’re talking short-lived antibodies, which wane, and worse if we’re talking cell-mediated immunity, which is longer lasting. I’ll accept equivalent, but I would say natural immunity, especially with Delta AND subsequent strains is at least as equivalent as the three shot series and probably better. I really believe every subsequent booster shot is, eventually, self defeating and negative efficacy is a thing and we’ve witnessed that. But, for the sake of this argument, we are talking about three shots versus natural infection, so, yes, I’ll accept equivalent, though maybe unnecessary for many people.
3.) Yeah, I’ll buy your 300,000 number and say it’s probably greater. The vast majority of these were very, very high risk people though and absolutely should’ve been vaccinated. But I think a great many more people could’ve been saved from death or even severe illness with some rudimentary protocols implemented by the likes of a Dr. Richard Urso, which is why that 300,000 number is so disingenuous. Urso, like so many, was readily dismissed as a quack, a dissident, a grifter, when he could’ve helped so, so many people.
So, there you go. What does any of this have to do with 2024 and FLIRT, lol. You, like so many in public health, have alienated so, so many people and so unnecessarily too. The lack of humility, the contempt, the narcissism, and the need to relitigate incessantly, exacerbated by media simpletons, really did society a disservice.
So close! You really are desperate for the vaccines to be dangerous.
I guess you will walk away and begin plotting your Second Intifada. (see: bloodlust)
