This thread was originally titled, "Incredible development in the $612,000 Transcon Goodge run, currently ongoing" but the new title is more descriptive. The description of the run is here.
Yeah, I've mentioned PEDs. They're rife in the semi-pro / amateur rugby scene / gym scene in general for his demographic, in that demographic. I was one of the few guys who didn't take them.
Agreed. Can we also agree on standards of proof for those who claim to have witnessed his running? Anyone can come on here and claim they saw him running. How do we know they’re telling the truth?
If Goodge won’t adhere to any norms of tracking, at least our witnesses can. I would think at minimum witnesses should provide at least one photo. Multiple photos and video preferred.
Hi, yes, a complete misinterpretation, never said that. I put out a diplomatic peace giving them a chance to behave, but that was it. Nothing on my observation told me this was real, and ever since I left, there has been total chaos with the data.
Whatever, whatever, comes out of this, these 10 things can't be denied:
1) RB and WG eschewed a tracker for no good reason, when most everyone else wears them, and a Hall of Fame US ultrarunner has said that alone means, "all bets are off."
2) HR monitors pick up a credible pulse on a runner circa 99% of the time, and let no man say otherwise - and if they do they're in the 1%.
3) WG and RBs hearts work 99%+ of the time outside of these multiday fundraising events.
4) But during them, for 14,000k, over 5 events, 6+ watches, and two different runners, they only work 10% of the time. There is no debate about that, the debate is as to why. The grave fear is that RB and WG are tampering with their watches during these events. And if tampering has ever occurred, that is grossly untoward, and a hostile act toward the noble sport of distance running - much of which relies on the "Honours Code".
5) RB and WG have never once commented or tried to address their filthy HR data in these 14,000k and 4 years. Their intellectual and emotional curiousity about the issue has been zero; even though a human pulse for a professional endurance runner is a fascinating and critical piece of data. It tells onlookers that the runner is actually doing it, and how hard they're working, and it gives the athlete huge insight into how things are going, whether they need to back off... whether they're getting sick, etc etc.
Absolute BEST case, he's running and they're fudging the data for marketing reasons. I can't get past the coincidence of the consistency of the data fails, and how they can correct them when needed.
Hard to tell if PED would be a fit for this event. This is event is all about running slow as hell and mixing in walking. But just doing it for a huge amount of the day.
Don't most PED help aerobic capacity? Some of course speed recovery. Steroids.
The record is just part of it Pete and the hook upon which they attracted a lot of media and sponsorship. Your argument is identical to Balenger's who just screams at me that the only reason I care about this is "because I've got a hard-on for a dead man." One of the most disgusting insults I've ever heard.
The far graver charge is becoming Pro runners and claiming athletic feats they're not doing properly, and refusing to wear a tracker, and filing data that's 10% clean. You can continue your foul attitude to me all you like but your ambassadorial spirit to the sport has been appalling on this, and your close friendship and sharing a sponsor with RB has dreadfully clouded your judgement.
I expected someone like you to be all over this stuff like a tramp on chips, but, well, never meet your heroes. Quite the opposite has been the case, you've full on agreed with the troll above who said, "who cares if he's faking it?" Errr, WE DO!! And so should you. Because it's everything that the noble sport of running stands against. It is a spiritual journey that is truly humbling and involves enormous sacrifice. We're not seeing any of that here, and haven't for four years.
WG will make huge media and capital gain from all this, and you're just waving it through and not engaging whatsoever with the talking points. FYI, midpack runners don't attract nigh on 100 page threads on Letsrun because they've done something good, but because they've done something bad.
And yet when people use their real identity on your jogle page, much different story of support for your theories. I told Robbie I thought it was BS how they used you in their video. Talk about ambassadorial spirit, all this has been is your attempt at smearing someone who hasn’t been caught for cheating, when you observed him in person for days. You never provided a single data file with all your “90% clean over years of research” to back up your smear campaign, like I asked. You just keep blowing things up into the air. I will probably never meet WG, and don’t care much for the way I hear he’s portrayed himself, but this whole thing is nonsense. And the only reason I got back on here is because someone from a media outlet reached out to me yesterday after I largely disengaged, which I’ll do again now with pleasure.
Right, I mean the only long media yesterday was him very badly cramped up at the side of the road, which soon descended into a long commercial for some cramping balm.
Ballenger has put out a request on insta for everyone who saw WG during his journey or ran with him to DM him - are they only now looking for ways to evidence he really did this??
And yet when people use their real identity on your jogle page, much different story of support for your theories. I told Robbie I thought it was BS how they used you in their video. Talk about ambassadorial spirit, all this has been is your attempt at smearing someone who hasn’t been caught for cheating, when you observed him in person for days. You never provided a single data file with all your “90% clean over years of research” to back up your smear campaign, like I asked. You just keep blowing things up into the air. I will probably never meet WG, and don’t care much for the way I hear he’s portrayed himself, but this whole thing is nonsense. And the only reason I got back on here is because someone from a media outlet reached out to me yesterday after I largely disengaged, which I’ll do again now with pleasure.
How do we know this is actually Pete? I thought Pete would be, like, idk, smarter?
I've published long and clear papers - about a dozen on them - with crystal clear insight into the 10% clean data [Freudian slip by you there with the 90], but all the runs on Strava are there anyway. The essays are all on here, or else, the main big one from a fortnight ago is still on the Jogle page.
Yesterday, 60 miles of pure rubbish. Stick it on the tab. You want a data point? Just look at that, and then go back through their last 14,000k of these things. Someone checked out the 48/30 yesterday and they were aghast.
Of course he didn't cheat in front of me, but he presented as a completely opposite runner to that of Strava, which I've written about at considerable length. But you just say: 'there you go, not cheating.'
And to call it a smear campaign when I question runners who refuse to be tracked or file a human pulse is pretty outrageous. At what depths do people need to plumb before we can raise the flag of concern?
Ok, farewell if this is it for you.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Ballenger has put out a request on insta for everyone who saw WG during his journey or ran with him to DM him - are they only now looking for ways to evidence he really did this??
this is a huge red flag. He is a day or two away from finishing and now deciding he wants some 3rd party proof of the run? And the 3rd party proof he is seeking is maybe some rando's pictures or eyewitness testimony?
WTH? Just because someone saw you somewhere along the route of a 3,000 mile journey, does not prove anything. The fact that you are looking for such, is plenty weird. We would assume you have a wealth of proof beyond what has been posted on strava to back up your effort and you would gladly provide after the run if it is legit.
Hi, yes, a complete misinterpretation, never said that. I put out a diplomatic peace giving them a chance to behave, but that was it. Nothing on my observation told me this was real, and ever since I left, there has been total chaos with the data.
Whatever, whatever, comes out of this, these 10 things can't be denied:
1) RB and WG eschewed a tracker for no good reason, when most everyone else wears them, and a Hall of Fame US ultrarunner has said that alone means, "all bets are off."
2) HR monitors pick up a credible pulse on a runner circa 99% of the time, and let no man say otherwise - and if they do they're in the 1%.
3) WG and RBs hearts work 99%+ of the time outside of these multiday fundraising events.
4) But during them, for 14,000k, over 5 events, 6+ watches, and two different runners, they only work 10% of the time. There is no debate about that, the debate is as to why. The grave fear is that RB and WG are tampering with their watches during these events. And if tampering has ever occurred, that is grossly untoward, and a hostile act toward the noble sport of distance running - much of which relies on the "Honours Code".
5) RB and WG have never once commented or tried to address their filthy HR data in these 14,000k and 4 years. Their intellectual and emotional curiousity about the issue has been zero; even though a human pulse for a professional endurance runner is a fascinating and critical piece of data. It tells onlookers that the runner is actually doing it, and how hard they're working, and it gives the athlete huge insight into how things are going, whether they need to back off... whether they're getting sick, etc etc.
Absolute BEST case, he's running and they're fudging the data for marketing reasons. I can't get past the coincidence of the consistency of the data fails, and how they can correct them when needed.
The rest stinks, but yeah. Best case.
Can you imagine someone putting on a 6 day adventure race - $1,000 to enter, 50k for the winner, prizes down the 10th. Rules: all runners must be tracked, and wear an HR monitor, as they can't be observed at all times.
A letter arrives on the race director's desk:
Dear sir,
we respectfully request that we be excused from wearing a tracker because at 35g we find them too heavy and cumbersome.
Also, we find that HR monitors don't work for either of us, so please excuse us for this as well. We'll wear one if you insist but would we warn you in advance that there's a 90% chance that our data will not be credible."
Kr, R Balenger and W Goodge
How is the race director going to react?
1) return their entry fee and say "sorry, no can do."
2) reply: "That'll be fine. 10% clean data good enough, and quite understand about the 35g."
WTH? Just because someone saw you somewhere along the route of a 3,000 mile journey, does not prove anything.
Right. Nobody’s saying he’s not out there at all. The majority opinion is he’s running, just not the entire thing. This raises an interesting question we haven’t discussed: what percentage of this run is legit?
Will C: based on your analysis of HR and pace data, what percentage of miles would you guesstimate Goodge has actually done?
Ultimately Will C has given life to some ridiculous record that no one in the USA crossers or ultrarunning community will acknowledge, whether it’s 53 or 64 days. I guess I’ll just go for the American JOGLE record lol no thanks.
PK, this is a bizarre claim. It's quite obviously Will Goodge and Robbie Balanger that are the ones who have 'given life to some ridiculous record that no one in the USA crossers community will acknowledge'. They are the ones that plastered 'Fastest Englishman to cross America' across their van before the run even started, and made big claims about this record in the media. So how you can blame Will C for this is quite frankly ridiculous.
And how the hell can you say no USA crosser will acknowledge it when your mate Robbie Balanger is a USA crosser and is head crew, playing a leading role in promoting this ridiculous record??!!
In your conversations with Balanger have you asked him why he's promoting a ridiculous record attempt? I suggest you should, if you haven't. And ask him why they haven't publically acknowledged that they were aiming for the wrong mark, because we now know the fastest Englishman was Lees, and not Tulloh.
I agree that the UK Transcon record is no big deal, but it's obviously Goodge and Balanger who dreamed it up. It's not as bad as their 48 marathons in 30 days world record claim though. Even though you, yourself, have run 48 marathons faster. So I suggest you have a word with Balanger about that fake world record claim too. Or would you rather blame Will Cockerall for that too?!
I'm just not sure there's a solution here any more. You want eyes on him. You get eyes on him and then you accuse those people of being in the camp. People have run with him. They're cited as fakes, crew or disciples of WG. The crew ask for video submissions. But that's because they're trying to scramble evidence. Will C went out there himself and crowned him clean for those days. Now you claim the guy's on drugs. I think it's time the board takes stock and has a think about what they actually want to see from this point in as we know trackers aren't an option. It's become clear that anyone saying they saw him is also not believed. So what do you actually want that's obtainable?
Yes I’ve done that race, and several others with bigger daily mileages, which is why I go along with Pete on this because I am a very average 3:30 marathon runner. The reason there is a high dropout on the jogle race imo is because most others who attempt it are too, and haven’t put in the training required. But, in reality, running/walking a couple of 6 hour marathons a day is not as big a deal as people on here are making out.
That said, the 60s and 70s he’s thrown in recently are certainly more impressive/questionable. But alongside that he has been accompanied in big chunks of them and Strava data seems to tally. And we also have someone who has observed at 4 points unannounced, but of course in good LR fashion, immediately gets labelled one of the crew.
The observer may have had a bit more credence if they weren't an anonymous poster.
I'm just not sure there's a solution here any more. You want eyes on him. You get eyes on him and then you accuse those people of being in the camp.
It's just because it's too late. Even before this most recent anonymous monitor (who I have no reason to disbelieve), people were already stating that he basically needs to run (walk) the rest of the way because of population density and too high of a risk to WG to try anything funny. His HR miraculously returned to normal and it does seem like he's going to run (walk) authentically at least the last leg of this journey.
Ballenger has put out a request on insta for everyone who saw WG during his journey or ran with him to DM him - are they only now looking for ways to evidence he really did this??
this is a huge red flag. He is a day or two away from finishing and now deciding he wants some 3rd party proof of the run? And the 3rd party proof he is seeking is maybe some rando's pictures or eyewitness testimony?
WTH? Just because someone saw you somewhere along the route of a 3,000 mile journey, does not prove anything. The fact that you are looking for such, is plenty weird. We would assume you have a wealth of proof beyond what has been posted on strava to back up your effort and you would gladly provide after the run if it is legit.
The whole thing feels like reality TV. A lot of evidence is presented with self-assurance that it accurately depicts reality, but we are left to question the full context. And while they could create a presentation that provides incontrovertible proof of the reality of this whole thing, they opt not to.
It feels like a psychological trick. It’s like in a courtroom where the standard is not “beyond a reasonable doubt” but rather “on the balance of the evidence.” The trick is that they are the ones deciding what evidence is produced and they choose to withhold evidence that would prove things beyond a reasonable doubt, and so we are forced for the lesser “on the balance of the evidence” standard which is where they hope to convince the jury, the ignorant public.
As long as we remember it was their ongoing choice to present like this, no one should feel wrong about thinking of them as reality TV and not serious athletes.
Personally I would have had my team live stream or at least record every step and upload every night, either on Twitch or YouTube. There’s starlink mobile and consumer grade gear able to accomplish this on a low budget. A live stream would’ve raised so much money and removed all doubt. Would’ve been good for his resume as an influencer/promoter too.
Fair point. I don't believe everyone is good, just as I don't believe everyone is bad.
Do you believe every stat put in front of you? Do you believe every negative statement said about you or others? Do you believe people are lying unless they prove to you they aren't?
Why don't you have a little faith as well my friend?
Well said. What we’re basically talking about is how to determine whether or not to believe what someone says is true. For me, believability comes down to three factors: the plausibility of the claim, the credibility of the person, and the quality of the evidence. The more extraordinary the claim is, the higher the burden of proof and credibility of the person is required for me to believe.
Example: If my friend Jason tells me he ran a 2:45 marathon, I would believe him because I know he’s a good enough runner to do that, and lots of people run 2:45 marathons. I wouldn’t even ask him for evidence. If, on the other hand, Jason told me he broke Kipchoge’s marathon world record, I would tell Jason he’s full of crap. If he insisted he really broke the record, then I would ask him to prove it. If he provided evidence, then I would assess the quality of the evidence.
So now let’s apply the three factors of believability to Goodge.
Plausibility of the claim: A transcon is an extraordinary feat, no matter the pace. Doing it at or near a record breaking pace? Even more extraordinary. Whoever is claiming to do that better be a great runner and have incontrovertible proof.
Credibility of the person: Goodge is an ordinary runner with modest PBs. On top of that, he’s an established liar who lied about breaking the consecutive marathon record discussed many pages ago on this thread. He’s also using this run to sell what appears to be a snake oil product, which further lowers his credibility. Plus both he and his mate Balenger appear to be attention-seeking narcissists who try to make themselves appear to be better athletes than they really are.
Quality of the evidence: Sorely lacking! It’s not just the irregularities in heart rate and pace that Will C has painstakingly outlined for us. It’s the irregularities plus the lack of a tracking device on his person, plus the lack of ongoing monitoring, plus the lack of camera footage.
So we have an extraordinary claim made by a non-credible person who has weak evidence. I don’t believe him.
As promised, , here's my response to this post...
Plausibility: Yes, a TC is an extraordinary feat. Will has been doing it faster than many, but not the fastest of all. Because he is so well supported and have recovery tools at his disposal that many who have attempted it makes it completely plausible.
Credibility of the person: I guess he is ordinary to you, but extraordinary to many. Anyone who completes a multi-day event of any sort is pretty darned credible. To your point of modest PBs, I don't see how marathon paces have any correlation to running a multi-day event. A 2:30 or 3:30 or 4:30 marathon pace doesn't matter to these. And, the HR debate of a marathon has zero to do with the HR on a TC or any multi-day run. This has been stated by several actual TC finishers. WC likes to keep bringing up that WG normally runs at a high HR as evidenced by his London race...not comparable...but I digress. To your point about "lying" about the most consecutive marathons. I know you're seen a marketing material before. That is a marketing line. Guinness doesn't show a record for most marathons in a month (strangely they have one for most halfs though). The line on the truck that so many have had such issue "Fastest Brit to Run across America" is also a marketing line. There is no such record. Let's not compare credibility just based on marketing lines.
Quality of Evidence: Here's my belief and why early on I asked for people to wait until it is over to decide their opinion: there is more than enough evidence that hasn't been seen yet. A) there are 100s, if not 1000s of hours of video footage that has been taken on this journey. We have only seen a tiny fraction of it on the weekly episodes. Unless a new preposterous claim comes out saying that WG's face is being deep faked in the videos and he is just sleeping away in the van all day, I believe this video evidence will suffice the loudest doubter. B) While he has been wearing a watch for every run (yes, they were swapped out early on), he is also wearing a Whoop device 24/7. I believe that Whoop will do exhaustive analysis of that data and will be able to show overwhelming evidence of his movements all day every day. Could he have worn a tracker? Absolutely. It sure would have knocked one of the biggest arguments on here. The on-going monitoring debate is weak. Just because they preferred that people who wanted to run with him came at certain time (just like I did and many others) does not mean anyone else could not follow along and monitor his efforts. That is not WG or RB's fault. We can't just take WC's 6 days with him as gospel. 6 days out of 54 is still a small fraction. Just yesterday someone observed him much of the day. As Luke said, this is a free country--anyone could have followed along any day of the run. Those products he is pushing are paying his bills. Right now, this is his job. I'm assuming you get paid for doing your job, why shouldn't he? I 1000000% don't believe the smear campaign that he is yanking money from the charitable donations. Show me any evidence that he has ever done that.
Hi all,here's an update on another thread about the British runner William Goodge doing Transcon at the moment and some worrying irregularities.Namely that he runs at 150-170bpm in the first two days of his multidayers, colla...
OK. Will is coming up on Allentown. Tracker is on Allentown BLVD. Here is a little Billy Joel to see if we can motivate to get some freekin boots on the ground and catch up with these pretty boy Grifters of the fine citizens of England. (I don't believe anyone in the US knows who these guys are besides letsrun).
I live in central PA and saw William Goodge today. I had messaged his crew yesterday to see if I could run a few miles with him but they said they were going to only have him run with his crew. I had also emailed Rojo with this info as it seems odd.
But I did want to see what was up with him. I followed their van tracker this morning and saw them outside of Mechanicsburg, PA on 641 at 9:45am. William was crossing the road to meet his team at a pit stop. He was running.
I then saw him again about 45 minutes later. His crew was a mile or so down the road. William was running by himself and took a short walk break up a small overpass. I then saw him running solo again around 11am through Mechanicsburg.
And this afternoon around 3:15pm I saw him running on Allentown Blvd outside Harrisburg. He was running with one crew member. It’s a hot day so he had on a hat and a shirt. I had pulled over to see him go by and he stopped and we chatted briefly. I asked him about yesterday and where he might stop today. He said 23 miles down the road.
So, as best I can tell with my one pair of boots, he’s doing the running and putting in the work. Has he done it every day of their journey, I don’t know. But I saw him 4 times today and he was always where they said he’d be based on van tracker and he was always running.
Maybe he’s just doing it?
Thanks for a) going out there to observe him and interact, albeit briefly, with him and b) be willing to post on here knowing you'll probably face some scrutiny. Just as I saw him running (along with running with) and talked with him, you know have more evidence than 99.9% of the people posting on here.