Thanks. I was just noting that you will not get a study of EPO use on elite athletes for obvious reasons. Helpful.
Thanks. I was just noting that you will not get a study of EPO use on elite athletes for obvious reasons. Helpful.
Renato Canova wrote:
It's Amazing that you don't understand the social differences between people born in 1955 - 1970 and people born after 1990. I don't know which Country are you from, but is not very difficult to see everywhere that Young people today don't have real will for endurance events in Europe. Where are in UK followers of Coe, Cram, Ovett, Moorcroft, Rowland, McKean, Bedford, Black, Brendan Foster, Ron Hill, Ian Thompson and many other ? Maybe all these athletes used blood doping BEFORE it existed, or the reason is the difficulty of recruitment of good talents ?
Thanks for your post Coach. Still, you know perfectly well that blood transfusions and steroids were well understood and readily available during the 70s and 80s. EPO was not but it would be silly to assume that all distance runners before the 1990s were as pure as the driven snow.
UK has seen drop off in (native born) distance runners since the mid 80s. Apparently Italy has too. Maybe that drop-off has something to do with soccer/football obsessed youth culture rather than true laziness.
However, Europe has produced a number high level mid-d athletes born after 1970 who could have at least challenged the athletes you mentioned. Marko Koers, Marius Bakken, Henrik Ingebrigsten to name a few are all exceptionally talented individuals with proven dedication to the sport. However low 13 5ks and 3:33 1500s just haven't cut it since the 1990s.
Throw in Americans, Australians, and Kiwis born after the 1970 and you have Bob Kennedy, Craig Mottram, Alan Webb, Dathan Ritzenheim, Ryan Hall, Matt Tegenkamp, Nick Willis, Leo Manzano, Galen Rupp, and Matt Centrowitz. All of these guys PRs either break or nearly equal circa 1980 WRs. However not a single one of them was able to earn Olympic Gold or a WR due to dramatic performance improvements of East and North Africans.
I'm not pointing the finger or calling anyone a doper. I am pointing out that anglo performances in terms of time have held steady or actually improved since the "golden era" of the 1970s and 80s.
You are right about the no EPO elite study, but I think we can extrapolate from the elite altitude studies. Renato is now saying his definition of "elite" is a sub 2:06 marathoner and that makes studies pretty tough to find for his definition of "elite" for sure.
Here is an easy experiment that could be done on the elite Kenyans born, living and training at altitude; to show that the levels of RBCs and Hb are an important factor in aerobic endurance performance:
First do performance measurements such as a 5k or 10k race or time trial and/or treadmill testing for VO2 max, LT, economy, etc. Wait 2 weeks to recover and continue training like before.
Then remove about 1.5L of blood from the test subjects of elite Kenyans.
The next day repeat the performance measurements of 5k or 10k race/time trial and/or treadmill testing.
My prediction is that just like everyone else on the planet there will be a decrease in aerobic endurance performance if 1.5L of blood is removed from elite Kenyans, just like everyone else on the planet.
I also believe that an autologous blood transfusion of an extra 1.5L of a person's blood that has been stored in a freezer for 6 to 8 weeks will increase aerobic endurance performance in elite Kenyans, Ethiopians, or anyone else on the planet.
cleans wrote:
I think that EPO cheats should be banned for life.
Not simply because they are cheats, but because that sh!t kills.
And take the big prize money out of marathon running. It's one less carrot for the cheats who are making their sport as credible as WWE wrestling.
Did you say carrot. Here is some new 2017 doping test information from another thread on beet juice and baking soda:
RE: Beet Juice versus Eating Beets 4/19/2016 6:06PM - in reply to Anti-Blue-Collar
rjm33 wrote:
Since you must be a really smart cookie...You must know that if baking soda is banned by WADA in 2017... then all chocolate chip cookies will also be banned in 2017...since they also contain baking soda.
rjm33 wrote:
Scientists also are developing a urine doping test for beet juice and it may be added to the banned list at WADA along with baking soda as early as 2017.
Anti-Blue-Collar wrote:
But coffee should never be banned as long as Ben "I'm-Holier-than-My-Wife" True drinks it.
Fred!... I thought of your altitude experiment when I posted some advice to another poster from one of my own previous scientific experiments on myself:
...Be very careful. One time I tried mixing 8oz of beet juice with 2 Tbsp of baking soda at the same time...to get synergism between the two PEDs... so that I would then get a new 10K PR that day.
I was so psyched about my idea, so there may have been some placebo effect as well.
However...it turns out that I did not set a 10K PR that day.
I hope you have more luck with your science experiments than fred or I have had in our past experiments.
I once got confused about how to treat my anemia and transfused ostrich blood instead of eating ostrich meat. But it made me run really fast (because that's what ostriches do).
It also made my blood values suspicious, but I gave Lord Coe an ostrich ride and he forgave me.
Where are the Brits now? Well Andy Vernon, Chris Thompson, Tom Farrell and a few more are as quick as Foster or Black or Simmons and Jon Brown ran an amazing 27.18 ( and was probably one of the most wronged clean athletes in an era of huge doping) but guess what, they're a minute behind the best guys. So the question is, is this huge improvement really possible in 20-30 yrs or are the clean top guys hitting the same times as the clean top guys 20-30 years ago, the answer is probably yes! Seems there are a few superstar coaches out there who claim to be able to create 'exceptional' performances but behind almost all of them is a shady medical back up.
I think part of the doping problem is cultural. How many Kiwis, Australians, Japanese and for that matter Brits have been caught doping in Endurance events? Less than 10 in the last 30 years. Now how many Spaniards, Italians, Morroccans??? Wow!
rekrunner wrote:
Yes of course. You know I'm in the minority thinking that altitude, and the 2 hour rule eliminates any suspicion surrounding these 3 points.
Right. Because your convincing explanations involving typos, editing errors, lying weather stations, extreme hemoconcentration after 67 minutes of running and 90 minutes of rehydration, and a 2 g/dl increase in Hb after 16 days at altitude are so obviously correct, that no suspicion remains. I literally lol'ed.
Wow, rekrunner, sometimes you troll way too hard. The others here don't even react to such jokes anymore.
You could at least do me the courtesy of pointing out what was wrong. Because all those statements still look correct.I guess it's because you found "elite" studies that show RE improvements. Great! You've solved one problem, but created another one. Did they measure running performance with a time trial? How much did the elite subjects' performance improve?When I say "projecting conclusions" from amateurs to elites, this was still in the context of suggestions that EPO give a 3-4 minute automatic improvement for everyone. For example, we might find in one study that 11:00 minute runners improve in a 3K by 38 seconds, while 9:20 runners improve by 25 seconds. What can we now say about the 7:40 runner? And how will that translate from 3K to the marathon? These kinds of questions would apply to both EPO and altitude studies.While I accept that "elite" runners can benefit from LHTL altitude training, my point was more about how we interpret changes in performance improvements, and how we project that onto other populations outside the study.
rjm33 wrote:
It looks like rekrunner is wrong again.
rekrunner said:
Well there are studies, like for EPO, at the shorter distances which support High-Low training improves performance, for the well trained subjects.
Altitude training can be done "ethically" on elites.
We can be reasonably sure that for well trained amateurs, both EPO and altitude can have some immediate benefit (although performance can vary).
Both altitude and EPO studies, suffer from the same problems of projecting conclusions from amateurs to elites, projecting conclusions from short term studies at short distances, to the longer marathon distance, and also controlling placebo effects. If it's a problem for one, it's a problem for both.
Renato Canova wrote:
Rjm33, not rekrunner, but you are wrong again.
The studies you showed above were absolutely useless, and of course made without the contribution of any expert of methodology.
a) The "elite" for the researchers are very far from any category of real "elite".
For researchers, if the Marathon World includes 200,000 runners between the WR and who jogs 6 hours, "elite" are runners able to run "under 2:40". This is a big mistake, since if we want to really study some phenomen, we need to limit the research to "omogeneous subjects". This means that if we want to discover what happens in the body of top Marathon runners, we need to study subjects under 2:06, since 2:10 already can't be considered "elite" (till now, 828 athletes were able to run under 2:10 !).
To consider "elite" athletes of 2:30 >< 2:40 means also that there is no clue about their training, very much "soft" as volume and intensity than the training of the real elite.
Arguing with someone who doesn't believe in PEDs is like arguing with someone who is anti-vaccination. They don't understand science and have no intention of trying to understand it. They typically have a mindset that prefers anecdotes, nice stories, rather than hard facts.
It's easy to poke holes in studies and criticize the researchers. It's much harder to actually perform the studies and recruit the relevant subjects. The researchers understand the limitations but what sub 2:06 marathoner will sign up for such a study? Diet, supplements and training would need to be controlled and I can't see anyone agreeing to that while they are in peak condition. That is not the researcher or methodologists fault.
This is the reason why Rjm33 was referring to your 'subspecies', you believe that a sub 2:06 marathoner has different underlying physiology to a sub 2:07 marathoner. Where do you draw the line? Are you saying a 2:11 guy will benefit from PED's but a 2:06 wont? Some days that sub 2:06 marathoner is only a 2:20 or worse marathoner. What happens then? Are they no longer elite? The harsh reality is that physiologically speaking we are all relatively the same.
If an elite takes EPO they will make more red blood cells. Couple that with iron supplementation and their performances will improve. If an Amateur takes EPO and iron they will also improve. To say that is not applicable because people who run under 2:06 are different is complete bull. There is a reason why athletes use EPO and why it's banned, and it's not simply a placebo. There is a reason doped up elite tour de france sprinters in the 90's were climbing mountains faster than clean elite mountain specialists...
EPO logue wrote:
Where are the Brits now? and Jon Brown ran an amazing 27.18 ( and was probably one of the most wronged clean athletes in an era of huge doping) but guess what, they're a minute behind the best guys. !
Where are the Brits?
Jon Brown is in Canada.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDVnkNawZz4http://www.flotrack.org/article/454-jon-brownfred wrote:
EPO logue wrote:Where are the Brits now? and Jon Brown ran an amazing 27.18 ( and was probably one of the most wronged clean athletes in an era of huge doping) but guess what, they're a minute behind the best guys. !
Where are the Brits?
Jon Brown is in Canada.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDVnkNawZz4
fred wrote:
fred wrote:http://www.flotrack.org/article/454-jon-brownWhere are the Brits?
Jon Brown is in Canada.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDVnkNawZz4
Moved to New Zealand to make money as a tri coach. Canada stinks too.
These weren't explanations meant to convince, but just one "still open" non-extreme possibility that remains impossible for you to dismiss, which forces you to use alternative tactics, like namecalling.I think I never talked about weather stations, except to say I think it's located at the airport some 30km away.
casual obsever wrote:
rekrunner wrote:Yes of course. You know I'm in the minority thinking that altitude, and the 2 hour rule eliminates any suspicion surrounding these 3 points.
Right. Because your convincing explanations involving typos, editing errors, lying weather stations, extreme hemoconcentration after 67 minutes of running and 90 minutes of rehydration, and a 2 g/dl increase in Hb after 16 days at altitude are so obviously correct, that no suspicion remains. I literally lol'ed.
Wow, rekrunner, sometimes you troll way too hard. The others here don't even react to such jokes anymore.
Fred!..I have more important new things to tell you:1) I am also a big Jon Brown fan. He did not get the recognition he deserved. He was a fantastic runner and people can hardly remember him.2) Previous research has already revealed that humans share about 50% of human DNA with bananas.3) I just had my personal DNA sequenced and my personal results showed: I share 67% of my DNA with bananas. The other 33% was found to be "junk DNA" of "unknown extraterrestrial origin". Just a coincidence.4) I am no longer anonymous as someone on another thread was able to figure out my identity. This is a really unfortunate development.Sincerely, Joe Rogan
fred wrote:
fred wrote:http://www.flotrack.org/article/454-jon-brownMoved to New Zealand to make money as a tri coach. Canada stinks too.
Boaty McBoatface wrote:
I once got confused about how to treat my anemia and transfused ostrich blood instead of eating ostrich meat. But it made me run really fast (because that's what ostriches do).
It also made my blood values suspicious, but I gave Lord Coe an ostrich ride and he forgave me.
This is an excellent and brief summary of the story so far, although I personally think your use of technical terms is not needed.
Here are 3 questions for you Boaty:
1) How fast can an ostrich run under controlled conditions?
2) How fast can an ostrich run under controlled conditions with IAAF President-Lord Sebastian Coe riding on it in Monte Carlo at low altitude if it is an "elite" ostrich that is born, living, and performing elite level ostrich training at 2300m altitude in Kenya?
3) Do you think Paula Radcliffe looks like she has the running form of an ostrich when she runs?
That is just a coincidence.
Renato makes a polemic argument against doping at all times.
Why does he do this?
Because if the drugs do work then the corollary is that it's highly likely that most extreme performances are doped.
His position is tiresome. It's not science, it's rhetoric.
rjm33 wrote:
Fred!... I thought of your altitude experiment when I posted some advice to another poster from one of my own previous scientific experiments on myself:
...Be very careful. One time I tried mixing 8oz of beet juice with 2 Tbsp of baking soda at the same time...to get synergism between the two PEDs... so that I would then get a new 10K PR that day.
I was so psyched about my idea, so there may have been some placebo effect as well.
However...it turns out that I did not set a 10K PR that day.
I hope you have more luck with your science experiments than fred or I have had in our past experiments.
Sorry you got outed, Dr. Joe Rogan.
You probably knew that they are beating the beet test with low dose beet suppositories.
It would also mean that a 2:03:30 marathon with blood manipulation is probably really a 2:06:00 to 2:06:30 clean.
My personal guess is it may be possible to run 12:50 5k, 26:40 10k and 2:05 marathon clean by elite athletes today for men. For women, I will guess 14:25 5k, 29:50 10k, and 2:18 marathon, but my estimates may be too generous for both men and women.
What are your personal estimates?
Congenital Anaemia...you must be from Britain with that spelling.
Your name gave me a thought that perhaps Paula could also be a human chimera... like the pro cyclist Tyler Hamilton who just by coincidence was a client of Dr. Fuentes in Spain.
In Paula's chimera case she would be part human and part ostrich, with both human blood and ostrich blood in her bloodstream at the same time.
Tyler had a vanishing twin while Paula had a vanishing ostrich.
just a coincidence
fred wrote:
rjm33 wrote:Fred!... I thought of your altitude experiment when I posted some advice to another poster from one of my own previous scientific experiments on myself:
...Be very careful. One time I tried mixing 8oz of beet juice with 2 Tbsp of baking soda at the same time...to get synergism between the two PEDs... so that I would then get a new 10K PR that day.
I was so psyched about my idea, so there may have been some placebo effect as well.
However...it turns out that I did not set a 10K PR that day.
I hope you have more luck with your science experiments than fred or I have had in our past experiments.
Sorry you got outed, Dr. Joe Rogan.
You probably knew that they are beating the beet test with low dose beet suppositories.
Wrong again Fred!!!
The urine doping test being developed for the possible beet ban by WADA in 2017 is very accurate and does not even need any fancy lab analysis by Dr. Martial Saugy for interpretation.
It relies on a simple and inexpensive visual inspection test of a urine sample which will test positive for beet use if the urine has a red color.