50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

38 easy miles this week after 30 miles last week. 50 miles is the goal for next week and then average 50+mpw until January. Then do 50-60 mpw plus one workout/week in January and then same mileage with two workouts per week in Feb. I found during XC racing season that I seemed to be experiencing some real hamstring fatigue/soreness after race efforts that took a good week or so to clear up. So the early 2013 goal is going to be to go back to doing regular weight work, mainly squats with about 75lbs., three times a week to rebuild hamstring strength and, hopefully, more speed. I have found that sprint work in any volume seems to cause achilles issues, but the weight work doesn't. As of this morning I only gained 1.5lbs. over Thanksgiving weekend, which I consider a major victory in personal discipline.

Long time lurker on this thread, first post. Regarding the WOC post for getting more people to exercise...Are you familiar with this group?

www.exerciseismedicine.org

I fit the thread demographic. Ran at a small college, GA at another small program. Got married, bought a house, changed careers, 3 kids, became a recreational sometime runner. Refocused a few years ago with a 3:15 at Boston '11 on my 50th birthday. Going to keep the marathon cycle in motion until I get back under 3:00. Running the Memphis St Jude Marathon in 6 days with a 3:05 goal. Ready to go but I've been struggling with recovery since I dropped down two weeks ago with quicker 400 repeat sessions.

Edgewood

Week 77: 7 hours 32 minutes in 7 runs. Taking a fallback week over Thanksgiving worked out really well, I'll probably do it again over Christmas. Weight is steady, sleep is still bad:5.5, 5.5, 8, 8, 7.5, 5, 6.5, average 6.6I'm a little stunned to find my comments labeled arrogant and elitist. I thought I was just stating the facts. Carrots and sticks are fine, but the best way to get people to stick with an exercise program is to make it enjoyable.

Edgewood, welcome! Yes, yours is a familiar theme. Here's to reaching your goals. Thanks, also, for the link. Very nice.

Racerdb. Kudos on a great T-day race!

AlanB, I do agree with you, but the reality is that we're talking about people for whom a brisk 20-minute walk is too taxing, let alone running. If people build up to walking 20 minutes briskly every day, then we can then start talking about running (or graduate to nordic walking:

http://anwa.us/html/index_2_en.php

). Just my opinion.

I'm not sure whether those stats would be similar here in Oz.

We certainly hear plenty about increasing levels of obesity and accompanying health issues here.

Around these parts I see large numbers out walking, running and cycling. A mate organises a community fun run/walk and this year 2.5% of the local population joined in.

I actually think there is a trend here toward improving health and fitness among the 35-55 age group. So many in this group seem to have taken up cycling or at least are out walking regularly.

The younger generation are participating in sport in good numbers in this region.

The concern is the late teenage years when the kids get cars, start partying, drinking etc. Then as they mature they find work, start families and struggle to prioritise their health and fitness.

I also note a much higher prevalence of health issues and self neglect among the lower socio economic/less educated demographic. This is often passed down from generation to generation.

I think to find solutions you need to find the cause and then treat it. It's not so hard to see why this self neglect occurs in these groups. Finding ways to change these trends is not so easy.

Edgewood & others, plus racerdb another good race!

Good discussion, I'll try to keep my reply short as like Skinnandbones I could go on and on, and I don't want to abuse the privilege of this thread.

First, Exercise Is Medicine (EIM), Edgewood's link. Yes, I'm aware of them, I have some emails sitting in my inbox that have been tossed around over the last few weeks with them. I think they can do much better with their mission (how many had heard of them until Edgewood's link?), however, that mission is prevention oriented, and I'm focused on cancer and exercise AFTER diagnosis. One thing I'm trying to get them to be a stronger leader in is IT integration and exercise. There are no standardized codes for recording exercise into electronic health records (EHR) or into other healthcare IT tools (apps, Garmin, etc.), so everyone records the data differently. When database integration becomes possible this will be a problem with the exercise data stored in different formats and in different silos - lack of foresight, slower research, more expensive to translate the data, and just plain not keeping up with the IT revolution.

There are two entities that seem to be dealing with this issue, and I'd like to see EIM or the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) get involved with them. IT developers share codes, and most likely know little about exercise, but they will use what others are using and what is simple. Once EIM or ACSM can get standard codes to these developers then they can get the base codes incorporated into new healthcare IT tools. The two entities of interest to me are: HealthVaulthttp://www.microsoft.com/en-us/healthvault/track-manage/overview.aspx and FitnessSyncerhttp://blogs.msdn.com/b/familyhealthguy/archive/2012/11/18/welcome-fitnesssyncer-aka-why-ecosystems-are-awesome.aspx Patientslikeme.com also records data that is user entered.

I haven't fully investigated either of these, particularly FitnessSyncer, but emails will go out to FitnessSyncer this week. I posted on the HealthVault developer forum about exercise codes and was linked last week to the FitnessSyncer blog. These developers are moving along, unprompted, without ACSM or EIM, and appear to be solving the database integration issue. It seems like a good opportunity to easily get standardized exercise codes into a lot of healthcare IT tools, and for ACSM or EIM to establish themselves as an exercise leader, far beyond what they are doing now.

There will always be a need for more specific exercise studies beyond the capability of many of the new healthcare IT tools, but many people are readily offering up their health information, and the data being collected is similar to that which is being collected in many recent and current exercise studies anyway, except the IT data is being uploaded continuously - go get it EIM or ACSM! This may just be a way to spot trends and assess risks, but it seems like a tremendous opportunity to utilize people and their data to speed up research, cheaply.

Why can't my Garmin be loaded into my EHR (which I don't have yet with my general partitioner) and merged with any Rx's from CVS, my state's tumor registry (each pathology report is recorded into a registry), available for my oncologist to merge with the drugs I took, USDA's food SuperTracker, and even merged with the VO2max test I had two weeks ago? The possibilities are fascinating, I may not benefit from it but in time others may.

Lastly, regarding carrots - perhaps a sliding deductible for exercise compliance: zero deductible for compliance to 20% for non compliance. Measure BMI, bodyfat, VO2, blood markers, etc. at an annual check-up? It may motivate more to comply, but as many have said, there will always be some who won't exercise, but even a 20% improvement would be significant. Us aging baby boomers and the rising obesity rates are going to hamper the US economy.

Training this week was affected by traveling for the holiday and my back issue, which I hope will feel better today after some more improvement with a few new exercises, one a hip flexor one. I'm confident that this can be resolved soon.

Week of 11/19

Mon PM 5 mile run, 6 strides on grass, feel hams on acceleration but not at full stride. PT4, new weights, light stretching, PT1.

Tue AM 5 mile progressive run on treadmill @ 1% grade, last two miles 5:44, 5:20, jog 1 mile, walk 600m then 1/2 mile in 2:30, jog/walk 800m then 1 mile in 4:53, 1 mile cool down. Leg plant feels solid, still some soreness in hamstrings, and legs a bit stiff from all the wts & PT exercises. I hope to feel normal next week. PT2

PM slide board, weights, stretching.

Wed Drive to D.C., back exercises.

Thur AM 5 mile run, 6 strides on grass - can't accelerate properly but feel ok at full stride. Back exercises.

PM stretching

Fri PM 3 mile warm-up on treadmill @ 1% grade, 1 stride then stopped when right hamstring got tight & sore, 1 mile cool down, back exercises. Right hip was tight all day from walking & standing.

Sat AM 5 mile run, legs feel good running except for ham tightness when step onto a curb or step. PT3, back exercises, plus new hip flexor exercises.

Sun Drive home. Hip flexors sore - which feels good, once at home I felt better walking around. Hope new stuff helps.

Health and good training to all, including the heel spur and ankle sprain!

lucKY2b wrote:

AlanB, I do agree with you, but the reality is that we're talking about people for whom a brisk 20-minute walk is too taxing, (emphasis added) let alone running. If people build up to walking 20 minutes briskly every day, then we can then start talking about running (or graduate to nordic walking:

http://anwa.us/html/index_2_en.php

). Just my opinion.

I actually wasn't talking about people like that, I was thinking of unfit people who can climb a few flights of stairs without keeling over. I know there are people who are so out of shape that ANY level of exertion is basically anaerobic. That's a tough case, and I would have to say I am not qualified to give them advice. Time to call in a professional. The proportion of such people is going up all the time, but I think the simplest approach is to get them young and don't let them reach that stage.

I'm a fan of walking, and I always advise it to new runners. All three times I took up running as an adult, I started off with a month of walking. Followed that up with a month of run/walk. I wrote about this method earlier in the 50+M thread. I think my comments about exercise duration would apply to many forms of exercise, running just happens to be the subject of letsrun. From my experience I know they hold true for these: WALKING, cycling, dance aerobics, distance running, ashtanga yoga. Not true for these, because they are more like interval workouts: hockey, volleyball, weight lifting.

Alan Bennet wrote:

I know there are people who are so out of shape that ANY level of exertion is basically anaerobic. That's a tough case, and I would have to say I am not qualified to give them advice. Time to call in a professional. The proportion of such people is going up all the time, but I think the simplest approach is to get them young and don't let them reach that stage.

When 35.7% of adult Americans are classified as obese (not just overweight), we can’t neglect that population. And here in Kentucky (and across much of the south), I'd say it has reached more than epidemic proportions. Here are the stats from the CDC:

The last point in this paragraph of yours is well-taken and, unfortunately, unheard by education policy-makers. Studies have shown that both arts and physical activity improve cognitive function, and yet the levels of reduction (and elimination in many cases) of both arts and gym in schools continues seemingly unchallenged. It has also been shown that allocating more time to physical activity (thus reducing time spent on academic subjects) does not affect academic achievement, nor do extracurricular activities that cut into “study time”:

I must confess that I haven't done my due diligence to lobby for more phys. ed. in the schools.

But what has that bought us? Us older Americans, who had Phys. Ed. in school (remember all those president physical fitness award programs?), are the worst offenders. I’d like to think that people would recognize what is good for them and just do it. I can see your hedonistic argument that "if they only knew how good it felt, they would flock to it," but I really don’t see that ever working. I still posit that it will take a combination of community attitudes and monetary incentives (or disincentives to being obese) to make any shifts. We as runners can be part of the solution in shifting community attitudes, but I think it would take a lot of work to have much of an effect beyond our immediate circle of friends. In that regard, I do applaud Tough Mudder or Rock 'n' Roll events that inject a lot of flash and fun into their events (even if, as a old-school runner, I myself am not a fan of these overhyped events.). Whether these types of events have staying power and can engage enough of the population is yet to be seen. Ultimately, I think it comes down to economic incentives to staying fit. After all, we know that a significant chunk of the healthcare costs born by this country are directly the result of unhealthy lifestyle choices.

In the mean time, we can keep training and racing. ;-)

In other news, 51yo Matt Ebiner beat all masters at the Dana Point 10k Turkey Trot with a very nice time of 33:35 (92.2% AG), placing 17th overall in a very tough field.

https://www.runraceresults.com/Secure/RaceResults.cfm?ID=RCEL2012

lucKY2b wrote:

Ultimately, I think it comes down to economic incentives to staying fit. After all, we know that a significant chunk of the healthcare costs born by this country are directly the result of unhealthy lifestyle choices.

Experiments in paying people to exercise have been made by several companies. I worked for a hospital that actually paid me per mile to run. But it was discontinued. Other experiments in paying have failed as well.

Insurance companies are not on board with reducing or actually paying people to be healthy. If you are an insurance company exec and you damn well know you are being bilked for billions in over-blown unnecessary charges, then no one will argue when you raise your rates. You can raise them…almost without scrutiny.

I used to do admissions for that same hospital I ran for. We milked the heck out of the insurance companies so we could make money. We made money on SICK people, not healthy ones. The insurance paid us, the docs rates went up, the companies rates went up, and the healthcare industry made billions of dollars.

Sick people make money for the healthcare industry and for insurance companies.

There is absolutely no incentive to promote health.

HEALTHY PEOPLE bring no revenue. Only a crazy person (in the health care industry) would want people to not need health care.

The health care industry and the insurance industry exist for the sole purpose of making money.

I don’t know the answer. Dis-incentivize rates and payments to ins and hospitals? Wait until the system breaks and ER’s are even more flooded with indigent patients? Doctors quitting medicine….that’s happening actually. It’s a mess.

lucKY2b wrote:

I can see your hedonistic argument that "if they only knew how good it felt, they would flock to it," but I really don’t see that ever working.

That wasn't quite my argument. My argument is better summed up, no matter why they take up exercise, if they don't enjoy it they won't stick with it. I enjoy exercise but not the first 20 minutes. Just sayin'.

I knew obesity was big (heh), but 37%??? Anyway, I do think there's a practical point of no return for the body. When standing up out of a chair takes a major effort, I don't see how it's possible to get enough exercise to turn things around. That's the absolute point of no return, if you will. When 20 minutes takes a major effort, then by my theory any of those people who do take up exercise are going to quit, probably sooner than later. So that might be the practical point of no return. Severely obese people might be doomed, I don't know. I'm going to stick my head in the sand on that issue.

The issues raised by Rtype boggle the mind. As much as possible I stay away from doctors and even more so hospitals, so it's all terra incognita to me.

Alan Bennet wrote:That wasn't quite my argument. My argument is better summed up, no matter why they take up exercise, if they don't enjoy it they won't stick with it. I enjoy exercise but not the first 20 minutes. Just sayin'

I see your point. I guess that we're thinking about exercise differently: I think it's more a matter of habit, than it is one of enjoyment. Once one is invested in exercise, one doesn't readily give it up and lose that investment, but it takes a few months before one feels invested. Also, for me, it was the first few months of running that really sucked (after being out of it so long); it's been tolerable (and mostly enjoyable...even on the hard days) ever since, even those first 20 minutes. Yes, Rtype's observations and experience are very sobering. I'm not sorry I brought this topic up, but, while interesting, it's starting to distract from this threads main mission. Maybe it deserves to be moved onto it's own thread so we can get back to focusing on training and racing. If you guys feel otherwise, carry on; it is an open forum, after all.

On racing news:

Hey, the new course map is up for the USATF Club XC Championships. Looks like we'll be starting on the other side of the main road. Interesting. It'll be a flatter start that will then go downhill first before we climb, and we'll only do the old loop twice; staring at a higher elevation means there will be one less hill. I like this course better, although it makes it a little harder for spectators to enjoy.

Cheers!

How did the marathon go?

Thanks for asking Alan.

I'm not sure what went wrong but near 18 miles the group I was trailing just easily pulled away. I couldn't cover. Faded over the back half after opening with a comfortable 1:33. Had an emotional breakdown at 23. Looking back at results I see I was still in front of all other geezers until around 18. It was an ugly 2:00 back half with most of the damage coming from 21 to the end.

My program is Lydiard inspired. A several month base period with no watch. Surges, fartleks or tempo if I feel like it. Just running. This is followed by a 12 week strength phase of mile repeats on Tuesday (starting at 4x1 adding 1 each week to reach 12x1) and a hilly 13-miler on Thursday. Every 4th week during these 2 phases is a recovery week with no hard running. Six weeks out I drop to 2 weeks of 800s then 2 weeks of 400s and 1 week of 30 second surges on the road. I shorten the distance of the hill route during this period. This time thru I had 9 runs at or over 20 miles and inclusive average of 57MPW since the first of July, topping out at 81. Yearly mileage stands at 2220 with all months but April, May and November being over 200. Training in the the Alabama heat.

This is the same basic outline that got me a 3:15 in Boston '11 and what I used to prep for Boston this year (but that cycle didn't end with a real race effort) and feel I'm in better shape. Like I said above, I've been having trouble with recovery since I dropped down to 800s. I'm going to look back and see if fatigue was the cause of today's failure. I do not feel the race plan was agressive. Aerobically, I could still be out there. There was just no drive in my legs. Any ideas welcomed.

Early this week I was 5' 6 3/4", 122.5# 4.49% body fat (skin fold), 20.40 BMI calculated. Resting HR each morning was mid 50's even though I averaged 8 hrs sleep each night.

Memphis is a honest course and easy to navigate logists if you stay near Beale Street. Well organized event. A race I recommend. Today was 53* with cloud cover at the start but the sun came out quickly and warmed things up. A bit windy.

WOC...My sports med doc turned me onto EIM. She shares a waiting room with my PT and does write scripts for exercise. Of course, everyone that comes in is already an athlete of sorts. She is an advocate and does talks all over town promoting RIM.

Edgewood wrote:

This is the same basic outline that got me a 3:15 in Boston '11

Any ideas welcomed.

Disclaimer never ran longer than 20 miles and only did a few of them. .....

Your 1:33 first half is a bit better than a 3:15 full so you do have the potential.

Ran any 13.1s recently?

Maybe change your focus to getting under 1:25 for a half marathon.

Mon - 90 min mtn bike ride.

Tue - 90 min hilly trail run.

Wed - 80 min mtn bike ride. 40 min kyak session on the lake.

Thu - 65 min run, mostly on the golf course.

Fri - 75 min mtn bike ride up and down Mt Ida.

Sat - 80 min mtn bike ride and a 50 min forest run.

Sun - 11km with 10km uphill mtn run in 57 mins.

Keen to get my bike legs back up to scratch so I have been more focused on the bike this week.

Ended the week with a nice run up Mt Alexander, my wife dropped me off and drove up the top to meet me.

I'm thinking of dropping back to 3 x 10k runs and one 20-25k run while trying to build the kms back up on the bike. I actually run pretty well off big bike ks. My best over 40 "marathon" performances were done off lowish running ks and 150-200 ks a week on the bike (lots of commuting). The last few years have been mostly just ticking over with the bike.

Edgewood,

Glad to hear she writes prescriptions for exercise, even if for those already doing so, I'm just not convinced that talking about exercise is going to get things done. I had a number of good emails this week from FitnesSyncer, FItness Industry Technology Council (FIT-C), and patientslikeme.org, which reiterated my assessment of healthcare IT tools - there are no standard exercise codes. Unfortunately, no one is leading the collaborative effort with other stakeholders to get standardization done, and I'm perplexed why EIM or ACSM are not the leaders here, the guy from FIT-C said he had reached out to an EIM board member a few weeks ago, that same EIM board member in emails to me seemed to be waiting for the government to do it. Sigh.

Training, I'm still working to resolve the back/hamstring issue, I feel I'm close, and would like to have a good month of workouts in December to really see where I am before a tune-up race or two in January.

Week of 11/26 (foam roller under low back before and after each run)

Mon PM 2 mile warm-up, 6x100m strides, 4x200m, then 4x300m/100m+ jog recovery all 48 low to 47.5, full recovery then 3x300m with 4-5 min recovery all 45 low with last 100m 14.5-14.7, 1 mile cool down. Hamstrings felt better until the last one when accelerating was again an issue, must be fatigue weakness that gets the hips/back out of place and affects the hamstrings, otherwise it felt good to stride out on the 300's. PT1, new hip exercises.

Tue AM 5 mile run on treadmill @ 2.5%, down to 6:40 pace. Hamstrings tight.

PM stretching, ab/ad weights, PT2.

Wed AM orthopedic doctor visit, weak gluts.

PM 5 mile run on treadmill @ 1%, down to sub 6:00 pace. Hamstrings still tight but better.

weights including new glut weights, PT3 plus new hip exercises.

Thur AM chiropractor visit, some hip mobilization treatment.

PM ab/ad exercises, slide board, new glut weights, run 5 miles on treadmill @ 2.5%, felt better.

Fri PM 2 mile warm-up outside, then indoors: 6x100m strides starting slowly, feel stiff and legs heavy, then 4x200m in 31-30, feeling better, then 4x400 with 1 minute rest 68, 66, 64, 65, right hip felt odd on last one so bagged rest of workout (4x400m 3 min rest), 1 mile cool down. Stretching, new hip exercises, not getting the improvement with my hip/hams/back as quickly as I'd like. Hams were better today, hope improvement continues.

Sat PM massage, easy run on treadmill @ 0% grade, 10:00 miles, all weights, ad planks. Felt a lot better after weights,

Sun rest

Hope you all have a good week of training!

Ken

*************************

Week 78

*************************

Greetings on this fine December morning! Hope that you are all doing well. I don't have much of a lead in today, so thanks, guys, for getting the ball rolling.

I managed about 56 miles on 8 runs. My week's log looks as such:

Sun: 10.3 easy (legs were dead!)

Mon: 8.2 easy (6.9 on grass)

Tue: 7.2 w/2x1.6 (9:43,9:42)

Wed: 8.2 easy w/a few pickups in the last mile or so.

Thur: 7.0 easy (3.3 am, 3.7 pm)

Fri: 5 w/4 run progressively, starting ~7:30 down to ~5:40.

Sat: 10.1 w/3.3 tempo@6:20 pace (all on grass on the Club XC course)

Notes:

-No intervals, once again, with about 8.5 miles for the week were at harder effort.

-Under one week to the USATF XC Club Championships, and I think that the tempo run on Saturday indicates about what I can do for the meet. Maybe a tad faster, but not much, so I'll probably start out shooting for 39-minute and go from there. That'll put me about 4-5 minutes behind Dave, haha!

-I finally replaced my Garmin after not running with one for the past 2 years. I succumbed to a nice deal on Black Friday, and picked up a 405cx w/heartrate monitor for $150. Nice thing is that so far all the runs that I've done with it have come to within .02 miles of what I measured out with gmap-pedometer. The shorter tempo stuff has been no more than .01 different. Good to know. Haven't hooked up the HR monitor yet....I'll probably mess with that once we get to winter break.

More about the Club XC course. We ran the course Saturday from the start. It actually does start a bit uphill before turning right and heading back downhill. There is a dip in the first 100 meters, so be careful about that. The first right-hand turn is going to be contentious. It is on a downhill, slopes away from the turn, and it will be heading into a tighter section; so this may be a bottle neck so early in the race. Crossing the road is the only part that is really poor as an XC course; once you cross the road, it follows onto a semi-graveled pull-off for about 30m or so (although you can run to the side of this, but its's a little rutted there.) After that, you'll get onto the old course, which will be much like it was three year's ago. If it doesn't rain, it's going to be very firm, to the point where I'm not sure whether spikes willl do much good. If it does rain, spikes will definitely help on the back-loop by the federal prison. They had some markings on the course for the first 3-miles, and those matched very well with what my Garmin read, I didn't see any markings aftger that. We started our tempo at about 2-1/4 miles (end of the dogpark fence), and ran the final two loops of the course, finishing our tempo run at the 5.57-mile mark (according to my Garmin), which was right before the course veers off the main loop into the finish shoot. We couldn't get in there because the gate is locked. So I checked the rest of the distance with gmap-pedometer. If I did that part right, the course seems to be about .1-.12 miles short. We can now start looking at the weather, which is iffy, except it seems the high will be in the mid-40's. Whether it rains or is wet is still too uncertain....what they are predicting changes twice-a-day, right now they are saying showers are likely...who knows.

Edgewood, thanks for the race report. Sorry that it blew up on you like that. A lot of times, guys shy away from talking about races that blow up like that, so I really appreciate your telling us what went south; it's all part of the experience of training and racing at 50+. I'm no marathon expert (only have run 2), but my marathon buddies tell me that one can do all the prep work necessary, and still, the marathon is so long, one can never predict what little thing will get magnified 10-fold on the back 13. In this case, it sounds like you just ran out of gas; but from your training, it is hard to tell why. Seems you'd done more than the requisite number of long runs; maybe you ran too many or maybe they were spaced too close together. Who knows....the marathon is a mystery to me. At any rate, good job pushing through to the end, regardless. If you recover quickly, maybe you can give it another go and it'll come out much differently. My closest marathon buddy has often run 2 marathons one-two months apart, and the second ends up being much better than the first...but he consistently logs 70-80 MPW year-round.

OK, that's my mouthful for this day. Hope everyone is in a good place!

finishing my 4th week of training after laying off for 10 weeks...averaging 60 per week. feeling good...

hope to help my 50+ club mates (cal coast compex) as the potential 5th man at club nats...

looking forward to the post-race party!!

a.d.d.