WTF SERIOUSLY: Lornah Salpeter just ran 2:19:46 Prague ein

Great ' European' record though!

After coming back from the ban. Are you frigging joking. You are just assuming they are clean afterwards. The reality is they sailed through tests for years before getting busted. More likely they were doping for a few years then got unlucky and are back in luck for a while.

Your list of none Kenyan dopers is another joke. Doesn't quite list as long as the Kenyan dopers list despite advance notice of testing and brides proven in the Kiprop case.

i first heard of lonah a few years back,when she ran in the olympic marathon.im not saying shes doping.she may well be completely clean,but when i read she won the europeans last year i thought 'wow,is she THAT good? ' i knew she'd broken a few israeli records,but i had no idea she could run a 31 minute 10'000,plus a 15 minute 5000.

What isn't properly appreciated here is that women like Saltpeter are now running times that would be competitive with top men in the past, like the great Abebe Bikila. He won at Rome in a record 2.15. Anything under 2.20 was world class. And those guys trained hard.

By comparison, the best men's 800 times in the era were around 1.46 - Snell, at Rome. What would we make if women were running times close to that - or even 1.50 - today? So why are these marathon performances getting a pass?

jeff tallon wrote:

i first heard of lonah a few years back,when she ran in the olympic marathon.im not saying shes doping.she may well be completely clean,but when i read she won the europeans last year i thought 'wow,is she THAT good? ' i knew she'd broken a few israeli records,but i had no idea she could run a 31 minute 10'000,plus a 15 minute 5000.

Lonah is the real deal. Untapped potential. Remember she just jogged 30-40 mins a few times a week, during the time she worked as a nanny.

Dan Salpeter, and the Israeli sport scientists have quickly devised a program to unleash her wonderful potential. They have some of the best sport scientists in the world, using a hybrid Israeli-Russian-all other countries system. Experts in bio mechanics, strength training, nutrition -they are all there in Netanya, near Tel Aviv. The 1800 restricted calories, and strength training is doing wonders.

If she does not get injured, Lonah can keep progressing up to age 40. Look at what Sinead Diver, 44 years young, did in London -2:24, with less talent than L.S.

Ghost in China

Armstronglivs wrote:

What isn't properly appreciated here is that women like Saltpeter are now running times that would be competitive with top men in the past, like the great Abebe Bikila. He won at Rome in a record 2.15. Anything under 2.20 was world class. And those guys trained hard.

By comparison, the best men's 800 times in the era were around 1.46 - Snell, at Rome. What would we make if women were running times close to that - or even 1.50 - today? So why are these marathon performances getting a pass?

The men-to-women ratio for 800m and marathon (and other distances in between) are about the same (women about 12-15% slower).

Marathon time has been progressing faster (for various factors routinely discussed here).

Do the math wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

What isn't properly appreciated here is that women like Saltpeter are now running times that would be competitive with top men in the past, like the great Abebe Bikila. He won at Rome in a record 2.15. Anything under 2.20 was world class. And those guys trained hard.

By comparison, the best men's 800 times in the era were around 1.46 - Snell, at Rome. What would we make if women were running times close to that - or even 1.50 - today? So why are these marathon performances getting a pass?

The men-to-women ratio for 800m and marathon (and other distances in between) are about the same (women about 12-15% slower).

Marathon time has been progressing faster (for various factors routinely discussed here).

That doesn't answer the question, of why women marathon runners today could compete with Bikila but female middle distance runners would still be destroyed by Snell. I could suggest that doping for endurance has produced bigger gains for the women.

Renato Canova wrote:

Also, I didn't accept suppositions done without knowing particulars, for example the stupid idea to look at Ramzi 3'39" (before doping) and 3'30" in one year (with doping) for calculating che EPO / CERA can give 9" of advantage in 1500m, WITHOUT CONSIDERING THAT THE RAMZI 3'39" WAS A WORKER FOR 8 HOURS PER DAY AND TRAINED WITH 6 SESSIONS PER WEEK, WHILE THE RAMZI OF THE NEXT YEAR, ALREADY MOVED TO BAHREIN, HAD A SALARY, BECAME AN ATHLETE FULL TIME AND STARTED TRAIN 13 TIMES PER WEEK.

Sure....when he started to train with Boulami.Lol.

Ramzi's amazing jump from 3:39 to 3:30 in little over one (1) year; 2003-04 (~4.1%) just happen to coincide with the time he started training with K. Boulami (brother of B. Boulami who was popped IC for EPO when he set the SC WR in 02). Ramzi was an also ran before doping and you know it.

And don't forget his insane performance at Helsinki where he won double GOLD in the 8/15 including setting his 800 PB at the time while running around with astronomically high Off-scores of 157.8 & 148. Lol.

And then there is that little matter when he tested positive IC for CERA @ Beijing winning GOLD and beating another famous doper at the line. Lol.

Renato Canova wrote:

I never had an investment in saying that doped runners are clean. But I said that for what I know (and I think to know a little bit more than what you know), athletes DOPED (like Rita Jeptoo) before one specific race, WERE NOT DOPED YEARS BEFORE, while people here think that they started to use PEDs from the beginning of their career. AND THIS IS NOT TRUE.

Though Jeptoo tested hot for rocket fuel a couple of weeks before Chicago, the CAS hearing said her ABP data from Boston several months earlier (where she set a course record!) had evidence of doping. So, the title and time was annulled and she was hit with a 4-yr ban for being deceptive at the hearing:

"Jeptoo "used rEPO over a period of time"

"The panel found to its comfortable satisfaction that the athlete used rEPO over a period of time to enhance performance," said a CAS statement."

What does that have to do with Lonah?

Armstronglivs wrote:

Do the math wrote:

The men-to-women ratio for 800m and marathon (and other distances in between) are about the same (women about 12-15% slower).

Marathon time has been progressing faster (for various factors routinely discussed here).

That doesn't answer the question, of why women marathon runners today could compete with Bikila but female middle distance runners would still be destroyed by Snell. I could suggest that doping for endurance has produced bigger gains for the women.

Silly question. Marathon time drop from 2:15 to 2:01 for men, 800m from 1:46 to 1:40.9 (Rudisha). See how much marathon time drops? No women record at the time Bikila, but since the record start, women marathon record also drop much more quickly. You are trying to compare women record in event that has dropped quicklyt (because we are still discovering new avenues in training, fueling, shoes, and yes, supplements legal or otherwise), with men time in 800m where the factors already pretty much worked out.

Suppose that all the gain in marathon were due to illegal dopping, that still means that men and women benefit equally. I don't see why it should be women only by your illogical apple to orange comparison.

VIPAM wrote:

What does that have to do with Lonah?

Ask the coaching legend Canova; he keeps bring up the doping cases involving Ramzi, Jeptoo, Kisorio, etc. ?

Don't ask me...ask him wrote:

Ask the coaching legend Canova; he keeps bring up the doping cases involving Ramzi, Jeptoo, Kisorio, etc. ?

I wonder if he keeps up with his Chinese doper athletes, too.

Do you understand your question is something without any logic sense ?

1) Shorter distances need more speed, and speed is connected with muscle strength. This means that the different percentage between WR for men and for women in running events becomes smaller going on longer distances, and this is also the reason because doping for strength (steroids) worked in HIGHER percentage for women than for men.

Assumed that today the use of steroids in athletics is very much reduced, we can see how much the running events for women are far from the average (at the top) of 30 years ago in distances till 800m (and partially 1500m), while the results for men are not very different. Also, in the longest distances there is a continuous increase of performances, with very great difference from the performances of 30 years ago.

2) Don't forget that Marathon was not a real "technical event" in 1960. Emiel Zatopek, already able running 5000m under 14' and 10000m under 29' (something that no women were and are able to do), won Olympics in 1952 with 2:24, that today is a performance achieved by more than 200 women. Also, don't forget that, already in 1985, Ingrid Kristianesen was able running 2:21:06, anticipating times reached 15 years later.

3) The reason is that there was no "quality" in the preparation of marathon, only long and easy run (practically jogging).

The athletes looked at marathon like at something extreme, jogging for the most part of the race, speaking about the mithical "wall" of 30 km only because there was no real training. If you watch in you tube the Olympic marathon 1952 you can see Zatopek and Mimoun running like an amateur, clearly not prepared under both physically and mental point of view.

4) The big change in tactic, approaching the race in more aggressive way, is at the base of the current times. Now, athletes are no more afraid to run fast from the start, because they know that, if don't do this, never can be at the end inside the top 5-10, and this is true for men and for women.

5) Another reason is that the number of women running marathon well prepared grows every year. At the end of 2009 (only 10 years ago), only 9 athletes in the world ran under 2:25. Last year we had 60 athletes under that limit, and this year are already 51 after only half marathon season.

6) You need to understand that marathon is a fact of mentality. When you fear the distance, never you can run fast all the race, and this is what happened in the past. We had some exception, like Steve Jones and Carlos Lopes, but were not able to understand their message, thinking they could have run faster, if using a more tranquil approach. Now, the only way to run a marathon (with pacers) is running fast from the start, and this is the interpretation for who is well prepared, but also for who is not prepared, but has this mentality, that in Kenya and Ethiopia is the ONLY mentality of marathon runners.

Renato Canova wrote:

Assumed that today the use of steroids in athletics is very much reduced, we can see how much the running events for women are far from the average (at the top) of 30 years ago in distances till 800m (and partially 1500m), while the results for men are not very different. Also, in the longest distances there is a continuous increase of performances, with very great difference from the performances of 30 years ago.

This got me thinking about Casual Observski's 'argument' that the British were roided to the gills in the 80's, as much as the East Germans, and this explains Coe, Ovett, Cram's success.

Just taking a look at the 800m British women all time ranking list (or from 1980 onwards), only Kirsty Wade from the 80's - who was about as feminine and graceful as they come - appears in the top ten, and only two others from that decade in the top 20.

But when we look at the British men's list, we see of course Coe and Cram at the top (with Elliot from 1990 in 3rd) and 3 other 80s athletes in the top 10, and a total of seven 80's male performers in the top 20.

Yet surely even Observski would agree that steroids are much more beneficial to women than men over 800m? It's odd then, that if the British middle-distance runners were roiding in the 80's to the extent that even juicing to the gills with EPO couldn't make up for it in the 90s, that the men seemed to benefit far more from it than the women.

Renato CONova

You discuss the fear of the marathon distance. I can even say you have a point. However, it is easier to not fear the distance when you are using EPO, for instance. You still have not answered how you can so confidently state that EPO would confer virtually no benefit to your athletes unless you had experimented. Why would it be banned if there is no efficacy to its use?

How can you say Lonah Kiplagat she cannot win any major?

After only two "serious " marathon she have 2:24 and now 2:19. Brigid Kosgei made 2:18 to win London.

So Lonah Kiplagat now she is at the very top level in marathon and also in half marathon, and the more important thing, is that she's growing (talking about her PB). I saw her in Firenze marathon and she is very strong she run with a very great form.

Coach Canova said that probably she can be the next Olympic champion.

ops... Lonah Salpeter i mean , not Kiplagat

About her big improvment in her time , yes of course is a big jump, but we cant say anything.

Except for the only very important fact that is of a girl that basically without any training was able to run her first marathon in 2:40. And this is a very exceptional talent .