Respected commentator Tim Hutchings calls out times from past drug era, says more natural levels now.

it's 2018 not 1998 wrote:

What's the obsession with Cathal Lombard? Get over it. Get over him. Get over the whole EPO cult nonsense.

Elite runners experiencing significant improvement with EPO?

Endurance athletes benefiting from EPO?

Who ever heard of such a thing?

It just can't be.

Jon Orange knows everything because he reads up on theromoregulation.

casual obsever wrote:

Great, thanks for the numbers. What straight line are you talking about, Jeff?

Rekrunner will scold us for going off-topic in this (lack of) sub-12:50 thread, but since you started it:

You'll be right, the topic includes "times from past drug era" and their reduction to todays, Hutchings just happened to highlight it during the 5K, it applies equally to all events except half and full marathon it seems.

Is it still humanly possible to run 7:27 or better for 3,000m?

Or sub 3:30 times away from Monaco.

Here We Go Again wrote:

it's 2018 not 1998 wrote:

What's the obsession with Cathal Lombard? Get over it. Get over him. Get over the whole EPO cult nonsense.

Elite runners experiencing significant improvement with EPO?

Endurance athletes benefiting from EPO?

Who ever heard of such a thing?

It just can't be.

Jon Orange knows everything because he reads up on theromoregulation.

There's no evidence that heat is the limiting factor in middle distance running. Times in 90F are the same if not faster than times at 50F in the 800 and 1500.

You'll be right. wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

Great, thanks for the numbers. What straight line are you talking about, Jeff?

Rekrunner will scold us for going off-topic in this (lack of) sub-12:50 thread, but since you started it:

You'll be right, the topic includes "times from past drug era" and their reduction to todays, Hutchings just happened to highlight it during the 5K, it applies equally to all events except half and full marathon it seems.

Should read: including half and full marathon.

ex-runner wrote:

I'm no Twitter expert, but... wrote:

She doesn't even give it the slightest mention on her Twitter:

https://twitter.com/emmajcoburn?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

As much as I like Emma Coburn, you've got to remember that her flat 3k PB is 8:48. Of course she can't compete with someone actually fast.

She converts her 8:48 to a 9:02 steeple. So that's a 14 second difference. 8:48 is not a world class performance.

I'm not sure I even have to spell it out now but this new 8:44 girl therefore probably runs ~8:30.

Again, what would Obiri (8:20 pb) run for the steeple? Or Muir (8:26) ?

This can’t be repeated enough. Beatrice has run 8:28 on the flat and is probably capable of faster. The record is about right.

People have always commented on how terrible Kenyans’ hurdling technique is, and one western coach even said that if it could be improved, the steeplechase would be over as a contest. We finally get Beatrice Chepkoech who not only has fast flat speed, but is technically flawless. Kiyeng and Chespol should consider changing.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcToo8ZQZk2w1JWXisgHG-EvN3CCQS7-K2BnR6pjmgnJHluKMI3i

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/hyvin-kiyeng-jepkemoi-of-kenya-gesa-felicitas-krause-of-germany-and-picture-id828339634?s=612x612

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRWJst57su7oju-W7Vjt-X71eUN8r5Dg9kllahjFx91of09YYC3

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQeibn_EimY-WlsV9GbKoXridY4LY5cmMj5pnRQbiuwAPb7FxVA

El Keniano wrote:

People have always commented on how terrible Kenyans’ hurdling technique is, and one western coach even said that if it could be improved, the steeplechase would be over as a contest.

And when you get a good 5'10"-6ft Kenyan who can hurdle, i.e. virtually step over the, lets face it, low women's steeples, then you're looking at 8:30/35 or quicker.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

2018: 58:42

2017: 58:40

2016: 58:44

2015: 59:10 [Diack's reign ended]

2014: 58:48 [the IAAF bribery scandal broke]

2013: 58:54

2012: 58:47

2011: 58:31

2018: 2:04:00

2017: 2:03:32

2016: 2:03:03

2015: 2:04:00 [Diack's reign ended]

2014: 2:02:57 [the IAAF bribery scandal broke]

2013: 2:03:23

2012: 2:04:15

2011: 2:03:38

No offense Jeff but half marathon is a haven for doped up runners I've never heard of and suddenly when they take part in a Marathon major, their magical powers desert them.

As for the 2:02:57, Jos Hermens openly claimed it was from blatant doping (pot calling kettle). 2016 & 2017 bests were the new Vaporflys that Casual was talking about in the first place.

At last, an honest commentator telling it like it is. wrote:

Former international distance runner and commentator Tim Hutchings during the London Grand Prix 5k on Eurosport talking about previous fast times and how nobody had run below 13 minutes this year:

"Those times seem a thing of the past...a bygone era, I never thought I'd hear myself say that, but sub 12.50 times now seem like science fiction almost. With the drug testing that goes on has nailed down so much of the activity in the sport of track and field, athletic standards have dropped dramatically to perhaps more natural levels over this past two or three years."

Well done Tim, hopefully more will come out, we might even get a few athletes admitting to it.

The fast times are coming back. The folks behind all the politics have begun to raise the payoff bucks, and it shows already with the steeple record for the women, the return to form of one athlete in the 800, the rather bizarre homestretch acceleration shown by another athlete in the London 800 (for all kinds of reasons we can get into later lol), and more. Hutchings was told to say this to also help allay people's concerns. Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. Sure, guys can break 13 without drugs. But we're headed toward seeing sub 12:50 no matter what good ol' Tim said this past weekend. Just wait 'til next season.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Or sub 3:30 times away from Monaco.

Hell, almost no one even makes an effort to have rabbits run sub 3:30 pace anymore because they knew the drug cheats were driving spectators away. The non EPO users at least have a chance at 3:30 and above. Monaco became the new Oslo, fast times are expected. Years down the line it'll be some other venue. The same whining used to be heard about Oslo, Rieti, etc.

Size and technique matter. wrote:

El Keniano wrote:

People have always commented on how terrible Kenyans’ hurdling technique is, and one western coach even said that if it could be improved, the steeplechase would be over as a contest.

And when you get a good 5'10"-6ft Kenyan who can hurdle, i.e. virtually step over the, lets face it, low women's steeples, then you're looking at 8:30/35 or quicker.

So basically all Kenyan success at running can be attributed to the good luck of being born at altitude? They can't even learn to jump over a hurdle correctly. It's no wonder they can't even compete at any other sport.

El Keniano wrote:

People have always commented on how terrible Kenyans’ hurdling technique is, and one western coach even said that if it could be improved, the steeplechase would be over as a contest. We finally get Beatrice Chepkoech who not only has fast flat speed, but is technically flawless. Kiyeng and Chespol should consider changing.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcToo8ZQZk2w1JWXisgHG-EvN3CCQS7-K2BnR6pjmgnJHluKMI3ihttps://media.gettyimages.com/photos/hyvin-kiyeng-jepkemoi-of-kenya-gesa-felicitas-krause-of-germany-and-picture-id828339634?s=612x612https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRWJst57su7oju-W7Vjt-X71eUN8r5Dg9kllahjFx91of09YYC3https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQeibn_EimY-WlsV9GbKoXridY4LY5cmMj5pnRQbiuwAPb7FxVA

Chepkoech has beautiful form both hurdling and on the flat - out of all women currently running the two most graceful, aesthetically pleasing and technically efficient are Chepkoech herself and Letesenbet Gidey. In terms of the record itself, I have no problems with it. In my opinion the two female records which are/were the weakest are without doubt the 3K Steeple and the 10k track. The steeple is such a recent induction onto womens events and apart from Jebet nobody has ever run it hard - lots left to trim from the time. And the 10K has always been run tactically (and its hardly run at all lets face it) Tirunesh Dibaba admitted she never went for the record due to a "lack of global competition" plus she could rely on her finishing speed. - So no surprise that the two most dominant destructions of the records are Ayana in the 10k and Chepkoech in the 3K steeple. - Both athletes I hugely respect and admire. In my humble opinion anyone who immediately screams doping knows nothing about the potential left in womens running - look not to the precedent of times but to the historically conservative way these events have been run - its that simple

Taking the restrictor plates off the ABP perhaps? Fast times put fannies in the seats, which has been severely lacking at the DL meets.

Lets Go Racing wrote:

Top Katt wrote:

The fast times are coming back. The folks behind all the politics have begun to raise the payoff bucks, and it shows already with the steeple record for the women, the return to form of one athlete in the 800, the rather bizarre homestretch acceleration shown by another athlete in the London 800 (for all kinds of reasons we can get into later lol), and more. Hutchings was told to say this to also help allay people's concerns. Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. Sure, guys can break 13 without drugs. But we're headed toward seeing sub 12:50 no matter what good ol' Tim said this past weekend. Just wait 'til next season.

Taking the restrictor plates off the ABP perhaps? Fast times put fannies in the seats, which has been severely lacking at the DL meets.

There is no major championship (other than the European Championships), so the Africans can increase the throttle this year in order to set fast times and get higher appearance fees next year.

I don't even know if its true that times are getting faster this year. A couple of spectacular 800 times and the womens steeplechase WR doesn't say much about a long term trend.

Most of the really faster than pb times at Monaco in the 1500 were set by Europeans this year.

Subway Surfers wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

Yeah sadly we are slowing down too. Probably not just because the Kenyans prefer marathons these days...

Is Ben True's 13:16 from Stockholm still the fastest white 5000 in this year?

Yes, the only other is Mr H. Ingebrigtsen:

5000 Metres 13:16.97 Palo Alto (USA) 03 MAY 2018

Brett Robinson (Australia) 13:15.91

No I won't. Roads are trickier to compare since times can be more variable: - courses can vary quite a bit with elevation changes, not always a loop, etc. - different measurement standard (roads add a small margin to ensure they are long enough to count for a record) - besides the marathon, WR attempts are rare When you look at the top-10 and top-20 performances, you see that many performances are from this decade. Even athletes from 2018 penetrate the top. So the comment "times are more natural levels now" don't seem to apply to the roads like what was observed for the track, post Geb, Komen, and Bekele.

Coevett wrote:

Size and technique matter. wrote:

And when you get a good 5'10"-6ft Kenyan who can hurdle, i.e. virtually step over the, lets face it, low women's steeples, then you're looking at 8:30/35 or quicker.

So basically all Kenyan success at running can be attributed to the good luck of being born at altitude? They can't even learn to jump over a hurdle correctly. It's no wonder they can't even compete at any other sport.

What is this pointless insult of the Kenyan people as a collective for? 'They can't even learn to hurdle'? Get a life you absolute loser.

Emma Coburn ran 8:48 for the 3k flat in 2017 and she also ran her steeple PB of 9:02. 14 second difference. Muir's PB is 8:26 so add 14s and she could potentially run 8:40 for the steeple.

The truth is that steeple is run by B grade women. That's both Kenyans and Europeans.