Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

Baron Duncan-Sandys wrote:

Frenzel wrote:

If Coe and Aouita raced over 1500m/mile. Who would win?

I believe in a tactical race, Coe would have the upper hand with his kick.

Too bad they did not actually race.

If Aouita raced against Coe and Cram on a regular basis, it would have made me a faster 1500m/mile runner.

Race the best to improve.

Made him***

I would go with Sebastian Coe because he was a specialist, as opposed to Aouita, who was a generalist.

I could see Aouita making a mistake in this race and burying himself from 900-1300m and Coe sitting on him just enough to blow by him the final 60m. Aouita relied on his strength to win races and Coe on his speed. I do note that Aouita is faster than Coe over 1500m/Mile.

lkj wrote:

I would go with Sebastian Coe because he was a specialist, as opposed to Aouita, who was a generalist.

I could see Aouita making a mistake in this race and burying himself from 900-1300m and Coe sitting on him just enough to blow by him the final 60m. Aouita relied on his strength to win races and Coe on his speed. I do note that Aouita is faster than Coe over 1500m/Mile.

Coe v Aouita over 5000m would be interesting if Coe trained for it.

I'm sure Coe could have ran under 13 mins.

lkj wrote:

I would go with Sebastian Coe because he was a specialist, as opposed to Aouita, who was a generalist.

I could see Aouita making a mistake in this race and burying himself from 900-1300m and Coe sitting on him just enough to blow by him the final 60m. Aouita relied on his strength to win races and Coe on his speed. I do note that Aouita is faster than Coe over 1500m/Mile.

I would disagree that Coe was a 'specialist'. Coe's 1:41 800m blows away any time Aouita produced outside the 1500/Mile (in fact his 12:58 5K looks almost pedestrian now).

When considering Aouita's range bear in mind that he 'specialized' in the 800m in 1988 when he produced his fastest time. The other years he was a 1500m specialist who went up to the 5000m in major championships to avoid Coe and Cram.

Aouita ended up with marginally faster 1500/Mile times than Coe, but had many more attempts at setting fast (WR) times at both distances. Coe would without doubt have ran faster than 3:29.4 in Stockholm in 81 if Robinson hadn't led him around a 52 second first lap (and then dropped out leaving Coe to solo run a 3:31 WR off such ludicrous first lap pacing). Aouita's times represent his very best, Coes' times certainly don't. He ran his 3:29 when past his best and even in that race, as Deano points out, he would have broken Aouita's WR if not for being impeded by the pacemaker.

You could also argue that the 1500/5K is a more natural pairing than the 800 and 1500. It certainly seems to be that way for the last 30 years, although that might of course have something to do with EPO. The reason why 800m runners like Snell and then Coe would double is because the 1500 was the blue ribband event of athletics.

You are delusional. Coe would never have run sub-13:30, even his father stated so... listen, Coe had multiple attempts over a 15 year career to run fast over 5000m, and especially over 3000m and he could never run fast. He lost to nobodies over 3000m in his career. He definitely did not have the fast twitch/slow twitch make-up to run fast over distance. If you know Seb, if he thought he could kill it over 5000m, he would have given it a run. You could say the same about Aouita.. if he focused on the 800m, he might have run 1:41, but I don't say that because I saw both of their careers and Coe could not run sub-13:30 and Aouita could not run 1:41. Leave it at that.

Sporting Clube de Portugal wrote:

lkj wrote:

I would go with Sebastian Coe because he was a specialist, as opposed to Aouita, who was a generalist.

I could see Aouita making a mistake in this race and burying himself from 900-1300m and Coe sitting on him just enough to blow by him the final 60m. Aouita relied on his strength to win races and Coe on his speed. I do note that Aouita is faster than Coe over 1500m/Mile.

Coe v Aouita over 5000m would be interesting if Coe trained for it.

I'm sure Coe could have ran under 13 mins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvgymbBg-xA

I'm sorry, but while I agree Coe did nothing to show he could break 13mins over 5000m, and certainly Aouita would beat him over that distance, to suggest Coe couldn't have run sub 13:30 is ludicrous.

For a start, his father/coach never said that his athlete couldn't break 13:30. I presume you can provide a link that backs up your claim?

Coe had exceptional endurance capabilities. Just because he had a 7:54 3000m pb this does not mean that was all he was capable of!? He ran a handful of indoor 3000m on the appalling wooden 200m track at Cosford as training runs and rust busters in Jan - March. He was AAA indoor champion twice, in 79 and 81. When he ran an indoor 7:54 in 86 his last km was 2:29. Tight bends on a wooden track combined with a 2:29 last 1000m shows he was capable of at least a 7:45 in March.

According to IAAF Scoring Tables, a 7:54 3000m is worth 13:33 for 5k. This was in March and on an indoor 200m wooden track! A 7:45 is equivalent to a 13:17 for 5000m.

Coe also beat Coghlan (83 World 5000m Champion) and McLeod (10000m Olympic silver medalist) in a 4 Mile road race in Ireland (17:54) at the end of '78, off a season running only 800m races! It also broke Brendan Foster's course record by 9 secs. The same Foster who had been the 2 mile WR holder, European 5000m champion and Olympic medallist over 10k. In addition, both Coghlan & Mcleod had run 13.20 earlier in that 78 season, before Coe beat them.

Coe also won the famous Vigevano road race twice (7.5km in 1980 in 20:59, some 38 seconds faster than Ovett was to record winning the same race the following year, & 1983, recording 18.28 for the 6.7km; 27:33 pace for 10,000m).

You mention defeats by Passey (13:20 5k pb) and Lewis (13:21 5k pb), in over distance races, all in the winter & early spring I hasten to add; which has little bearing over ability in peak summer; which is perfectly reasonable for an 800m/miler at that stage of a season. I seem to remember Ovett, who admittedly ran many more road races and X-country than Coe, was also beaten in over distance races by those who wouldn't sniff him over a mile on the track. Yet, you have chosen to totally ignore the fact that Coe beat even more impressive names; Cova, Coghlan, McLeod, Wessinghage (all World, European or Olympic medallists over 5 and/or 10k)in races of longer than 2km. In fact he beat the former 3 in races longer than 5000m.

If Coe's ability was only 7:54 and 14:06, then please explain why he was able to beat 13:20 runners over 4miles?

You should read UK's eminent middle & long distance coach, Frank Horwill's comments about Coe's 5k ability at:-

.

Horwill states (at the above website):-

"But where did Coe get his amazing endurance from? The answer came to me in 1986 when I went to Battersea Park Track one Saturday morning with a 13:11 5K performer to do a session of 7 x 800 at 5K speed with 45secs rest. The rep times were fixed at 2mins.08secs because the 5K runner was returning to fitness after injury. Coe was on the track and came across and asked what we were doing and could he join in? I felt a little apprehensive that an acknowledged 800/1500m runner would not survive a 5K pace session with a short recovery. The 800s went like this: 2:08, 2:06, 2:04, 2:02, 2:00, 1:58 and 1:56! Coe led them all. Afterwards, he confessed that he did a 5K pace session at 13:20 speed each week. I ventured the opinion that he could run a good 5K anytime. He agreed, but said he didn't like the event! It is doubtful whether any 800m runner before or since could have completed such a session in such times."

The 13:11 5000m performer he refers to is Tim Hutchings (bronze medallist over 5000m at both the European and Commonwealth Championships that year).

I think Coe could have run 13:20 - 13:25 at any time in the peak of any summer with reasonable pacing. If he'd trained for it and stuck to his plans of racing the distance in the summer, then I see no reason he couldn't have got down to 13:10 - 13:15.

I don't agree with Horwill (and not many do).

Listen, the sport is about performing. We don't live in selective La-La land. Coe had 15 years to run a fast 3000m. He could not do it. Those other blokes hammered him on the same wooden track during the same build-up in early season. His number, per Quenton Cassidy, is 7:54/14:06.

We all agree that 3000/5000m was not a distance that Sebastian Coe could excel at, because as he himself stated when he retired, "I can no longer improve and I cannot compete moving up."

He did not do what Galen Rupp did... many of us lived in La-La land saying Rupp could run 2:06 or Farah could run 2:06 and both you and Covett, etc., said, no, they have not run it, it cannot be. Well, they actually ran it.

Coe had 15 years.

He was unable to do so. Part of racing fast is having the distance-man's mentality and mindset to suffer. Coe did not have that like Aouita. In fact, Coe could be broken easily in longer distances. Yes, he had the muscular system to run 800 repeats under 2:00 (that is 50% anaerobic), but he could not run pure endurance training to run fast over 3000/5000m.

The proof is in the pudding. 7:54/14:06.

Good day.

+1

"Lads, if I thought my son would be a world-beater over 5000m with all the training and testing we have done over the years, I would have forged him into a 5000m champion. However, his speed was prodigious and he was suited for the 800m and 1500m. And with all the planning of young Newbold, I could have staged a progression to 5000m, but this is not where his temperament lay, physical nor mental. Nothing showed me he could be a world champion over 5000m, and so we did not pursue nor waste time, energy, and resources."

Aouita offcourse, This is just a total disrespect to Aouita with such a comparison. We can do better folks.

Lol.

Please find a link to a quote I made stating that Rupp and Farah couldn’t run a 2:06 Marathon! I have never made any comment on that particular issue.

You are happy to mention that Coe lost some distance races, but fail to confront the fact he also beat the likes of Coghlan, Cova, Wessinghage, Mcleod, etc in distances of 3000m and longer. You don’t beat their likes over 4 Miles without the ability to run much faster than his 5000pb, which was in the Yorkshire Champs in 1980 and treated as a training run.

Suggesting Coe was only capable of 7:54 and 14:06, is the same as suggesting El G could only run 800m in 1:47 (his pb).

The Ghost of Peter Coe wrote:

"Lads, if I thought my son would be a world-beater over 5000m with all the training and testing we have done over the years, I would have forged him into a 5000m champion. However, his speed was prodigious and he was suited for the 800m and 1500m. And with all the planning of young Newbold, I could have staged a progression to 5000m, but this is not where his temperament lay, physical nor mental. Nothing showed me he could be a world champion over 5000m, and so we did not pursue nor waste time, energy, and resources."

Is this a direct quote from Peter Coe himself? If it is, could you please add a link or state where and when this was made?

I’m more inclined to think it is a sentiment that you have presumed he would have taken, and one which I would pretty much agree with.

I have never claimed he was capable of beating Aouita over 5000m, or even good enough to be a World Champion (which would basically have been the same thing in the mid 80’s), but I do take issue with the posters who claim Coe couldn’t run faster than 14:06 or even 13:30.

The overwhelming evidence I have put forward suggests that a time of below 13:30 was within his compass, as he beat 13:20 runners in over distance races.

You don't think Coe could run a 5000m WR if he focused on the 5000m training after 1984?

Sebastian Aouita wrote:

You don't think Coe could run a 5000m WR if he focused on the 5000m training after 1984?

This question was addressed at Deano, but I'll chime in here too.

Coe had every intention of moving up to the 5000m after LA but injuries (and perhaps Cram's ascent as the number 1 Miler in 85) changed his mind. However, there is no indication that it was his coach, his father who changed his mind. Peter Coe obviously saw Coe's future after LA as a 5000m runner, as did Seb. The quote allegedly from his father comes across as extremely dubious and I'd dismiss it unless the poster can provide a link. Just the fact that it starts with 'Lads,' suggests it's at best a reported quote from somebody who claimed to hear this from Peter Coe, not from Peter Coe himself in an article, book, or interview.

I think the 5000 WR was weak at the time. That David Moorcroft, who had moved up to the event to escape Coe and Cram could solo run a 13 flat in his few injury free weeks as a specialist 5K runner suggests that it is. The fact that Aouita, a 1500 specialist who moved up the 5000m just for the major championships to avoid Coe and Cram and Ovett could run 12:58 and dominate the competition suggests it was weak. The fact that Ovett when moving up from the 400/800m to the 1500m in 1977 ran 13:25 in one of his first ever dabbles with the distance suggests that it was weak.

I think Ovett might have had more natural talent at the longer distances than Coe, but I think both could have easily ran under 13 minutes if they had trained for it specifically in their prime years.

Obviously the ridiculous times in the 5000m in the 90s and 00s were down mainly to EPO, but I still think super talented clean athletes could be running 12:50 or faster these days clean. I would bet my house that if Jakob stays motivated and injury free that he will run under that in the next couple of years.

Why wasn't Ovett more successful in the 5000m? He won the Commonwealth title in 1986 but struggled in the 86 EC and 87 WC.

Injuries I assume.

It would have been great if he could have challenged Aouita.

I think he picked up a respiratory infection just before the European Championships in Stuttgart and then couldn't cope with the stifling heat . He looked amazing at the Commonwealths and would likely have been in even better shape at the Europeans. In 1987 he was going very well and beat just about everybody except Aouita in the run up to the world championships but then again couldn't cope with the heat in Seoul. After that he attempted to move back down to the 1500 but couldn't recapture his speed (and was 33 or something at this point and had been at the top for over 15 years).

I read an old interview with him (and Coe) before the start of the 1988 season and both he and Seb expected each other to be challenging for the 1500m gold medal in Seoul.

Of course Aouita would win. That's why he figures on Peter Coe's book cover instead of Sebastian. They knew it and paid homage.