Moen. 2:05. Wins Fukuoka. How??

m!ndweak wrote:

umm Renato you need to watch it there buddy.

calling people idiot, moron and stupid on this cite will get you banned. you know you have to be civil, you have to be respectful, you cant be mean.

i know you are a genius cause you boast and brag that you are, so you should prob chill it out a bit on the name calling. do you know that calling someone an idiot is hurtful? i learned my ways Renato, i used to say your name incorrectly and it got me banned, so please be nice to people. dont be soooo mean, they dont get it yet, one day they will see as i do, EPO is nothing more than snake oil.

basic intrinsic signing out

I sincerely hope this means you're not coming back to muddy up yet another thread.

Well technically you are right -- Goumri was also suspended with ABP anomalies. Erupe was the only Kenyan. You are also right -- it is important to separate knowledge and facts from belief, and be able to understand which is which. So, speaking in terms of what "we do know", we do know that "in top 100 men marathon runners of all time only two were found doped with EPO or ABP anomalies". Anything beyond two, we are no longer speaking about "what we do know", but invoking belief. When we look for proven anecdotes, we only have 2 out of the top 100 as an affirmative demonstration. Since you put so much stock in the Teubingen survey results, let's take a thoughtful look at these "actual numbers" from the Tuebingen surveys, again just in the context of "what we do know". What can these surveys, which includes sprints, and field events, and mixed up men and women, tell us about the top 100 men marathon performers of all time? If you put 100 men and women in a room, ranging from 100 pounds to 250 pounds in weight, what can you tell from the average weight of all of them? Again, speaking from "what we know", the surveys do not add to our knowledge, for at least four reasons. First, what are "the actual numbers"? The survey conductors found 44% at the World Championships, and 57% at the Pan Arab Games. We should note that the Pan Arab games are not the same level as World Championship games, and specifically, no Kenyans or Ethiopians compete in the Pan Arab Games. We should also note that these "actual numbers" only work when the respondents are 100% truthful. While the conductors argued their belief that, if anything these were underestimates, this still remains a belief based on arguments and assumptions, and not "what we know". "What we know", is that when eliminating the quickest responses, the answers that were given the most thought and reflection produced smaller prevalences of 29% and 45%. Why look for bias in the quickest responses in the first place? The thinking is that the quickest responders might not have thought long enough, to understand and give proper consideration to answer the questions accurately. It's like when you answer your wife's question "does this make me look fat" too quickly, she doesn't believe you. Second, the two Tuebingen surveys give us very different sets of figures. No matter which figures you use, the Pan Arab Games are consistently 13-15 percentage points higher than the World Championship. Also the quality of athletes and performances, at the World Championships are much higher than the smaller pool of athletes at the Pan Arab Games. It would be misleading to take the higher figures of the Pan Arab Games as representative of top athletes. Even the World Championships does not 100% reflect the top athletics population, as there are limits to the number of athletes that can represent a country, and some countries with no qualifying athletes are still permitted to enter a candidate. But the World Championship figures should be considered more representative of top athletes than the Pan Arab Games. The conductors do not attempt to explain this 13-15% difference. You've stated your personal belief that "top athletes are MORE likely to dope", without justification or explanation. On the contrary, it would seem (to me) more likely that athletes who are not winning would be tempted to look for external support to get themselves to the next level. The Pan Arab Games increased prevalence over the World Championships supports an argument that lower quality athletes are more likely to dope with higher prevalence. The surveys mixes doping prevalence for all athletics events into one average. Can we assume that the all time top athletes in distance events have the same doping distribution as in sprinting events and field events? This would assume that EPO is as effective for distance, as steroids is for sprint and power events. Judging by all-time top 100 lists, and what we know of who got caught doping, this assumption looks invalid, especially in a survey that includes men and women. The surveys also mixes men and women together. Can we assume that the men and women dope with the same prevalence? In another thread, I argued that we can use the Russians to see where drug cocktails work, by looking at which Russians made it to the podium. Noticeably, the Russian men do not appear on the podiums for distance running events. I argued that this is indicates doping does not work for men at long distance. The response was that the Russian state knew it would bring little to no return, so they didn't dope the men at all. So if EPO and blood doping works for both men and women alike, then we should conclude from the results that the women were doping much more than the men. So let's try to look at the "actual numbers", with that in mind.

casual obsever wrote:

Well, we do know that 44% - 57% of all championship athletes in 2011 are self-admitted drug cheats, ...

Renato Canova wrote:

the fact that in top 100 marathon runner all time only one was doped with EPO

Well, that is not a fact. Fact is, that only one of them (males) was tested positive.

Try to look at that with the actual numbers in mind: since half of the championship athletes are dopers, who is clean? A lot of them, yes, but a lot of them are also dirty.

Renato has given us great insight again.

So from what I get, our typical american/european 2:12-2:15 guys should do the following to reach their true potential:

-live and train at altitude year round (some already do, for example in Flagstaff)

-build up to more and more volume at specific speed (tons of volume at slow paces is useless)

-abandon a typical weekly structure (do hard sessions when you are ready for it and not because its Tuesday)

-do longish runs with alternating segments at faster than race pace and still brisk "recovery" (not too many tempos at pace)

- do the very long runs at fast pace, start slowly and insert more and more speed, finish strong

-live a humble live (training and recovery and sleeping is much more important than instagram posts)

-fuel up on ugali and fruit insead of pizza and ice cream

- train in a group environment only when everyone in the group is focused and disciplined and humble

- train alone when the group would give you excuses to drink beer, go to the cinema and play video games

You were perfect in your analysis.

I can also add another thing : Don't look at any supplement or external aid, because this means you don't believe in your possibilities and in your strength. You can't become a real champion if are not mental tough with yourself, and the main motivation (that must the same from your beginning when you are still a young boy or girl) must be to see where you can arrive with your own strength. This is not only the best way, but in my mind the ONLY way for reaching the top of your self confidence, and to build a very strong, but humble, personality.

- dont take EPO

- dont be mindweak

- dont train with al sal

- dont throw shade (bad for the elbows)

- dont sign with NOP

- dont go to kevin spaceys trailer

basic intrinsic out

So Moen has been at altitude since May and he has gone from 62 to 59 and 2:10 to 2:05. He is a very strong responder to altitude.

Just love to read this again and again.

So all these years when I was sore doing a lighter recovery run. I was really a softy. I should have been hammering it out.

Why doesn't Eliud Kipchoge train the "correct" way?

Eliud Kipchoge – Full Training Log Leading Up To Marathon World Record Attempt:

Thurs Aug 10

AM 30.8km Tempo Run: 1hr42min (meant to be 30km, but had to take a detour loop as the course was too muddy in parts, ended up just running back to the starting point, which was 30.8km)

PM 10km easy (40mins)

Fri Aug 11

AM 16km easy-moderate (70mins)

PM 10km easy (40mins)

Sat Aug 12

AM Fartlek: 10min warm up (1.9km), 4x10mins with 2min rest, reps were at right around 3:00/km (2:45-2:50 downhill, 3:10-3:15 uphill) and rest was very slow jogging. 15min easy cool down (2.2km) * Interesting: This entire workout was completed in under 80mins, virtually no time between warm up, workout, cool down. They stretched for only a moment between warm up and 1st rep. They did 2 reps out, 2 reps back. 2nd rep was downhill, 3rd rep uphill.

PM 12km (50mins)

Sun Aug 13

AM 22km (78mins)

Mon Aug 14

AM 21km in 70mins moderate (Eldoret – flat course, mainly road)

PM 10km easy (40min)

Tue Aug 15

AM Track: 15min warm up (3.1km). 1200m in 3:25, jog lap, 5x1km in 2:55 (1.30 rec), jog lap, 3x300m in 42-40 (1:00 rec), jog lap, 2x200m in 27s (1:00 rec). 15min cool down (3km)

PM Rest

Wed Aug 16

AM 18km easy-moderate (71min)

PM 11km easy (44min)

Thur Aug 17

AM 40km Tempo Run: 2hr26min – Very tough course, poor conditions (muddy etc)

Fri Aug 18

AM 18km easy-moderate (70min)

PM 10km easy (39min)

Sat Aug 19

AM Fartlek: 10min warm up (2km). 30 x (1min on, 1min off), with reps at an average speed of 2:45/km and recoveries an easy jog.Cross country course. 15min cool down (2.8km)

Sun Aug 20

AM 20km easy-moderate (77min)

Mon Aug 21

AM 21km easy-moderate (72min)

PM 11km easy (43min)

Tue Aug 22

AM Track: 10min warm up. 12x800m (goal 2:10s): 2.13, 2.11, 2.13, 2.10, 2.11, 2.10, 2.10, 2.09, 2.11, 2.10, 2.09. 10x400m (goal 62s): 64, 64, 63, 64, 62, 62, 61, 62, 61, 61. Rest: 1.5min rest for all. 10min cool down.

Wed Aug 23

AM 18km easy-moderate (77min) starting at 6:00/km, working down to 3:30/km in the final 5km.

PM 10km easy (41min)

Thurs Aug 24

AM 30km Tempo Run: 1hr38min. Good conditions today, fairly dry. Course undulating but not too hard.

Fri Aug 25

AM 18km (76mins) starting at 5:45/km, working down to 3:30/km for the final 6km.

Sat Aug 26

AM Fartlek: 10mins warm up (2km) 18 x (3min hard, 1min easy). Average pace in each repetition was around 3:00/km on the undulating course in Kaptagat (2400m altitude). Recoveries done very easy (jog). 15mins cool down (2.8km)

Sun Aug 27

AM 22km easy-moderate (83min)

Mon Aug 28

AM 21km moderate (71min) in Eldoret (flat course)

PM 11km easy (43min)

Tues Aug 29

AM Track: 15min warm up (3.1km). 5 sets of (2km in 5:45-5:50, 1km in 2:50) with recovery of 100m walk, 100m jog. 15min cool down (3km)

Wed Aug 30

AM 18km easy-moderate (72min)

PM 11km easy (44min)

Thurs Aug 31

AM 40km Tempo Run: 2hr13min

Fri Sep 1

AM 18km easy-moderate (74min)

PM 10km easy (41min)

Sat Sep 2

AM Fartlek: 10min warm up (2km). 25 x (1min hard, 1min easy) with reps at an average speed of 2:45/km and recoveries an easy jog. Cross country course. 15min cool down (2.8km)

Sun Sep 3

AM 20km easy-moderate (77min)

Mon Sep 4

AM 21km moderate (71min) on flat course (Eldoret)

PM 11km easy (45min)

Tue Sep 5

AM Track: 15min warm up (3km). 13 x 1km starting in 2:53, ending in 2:45 (average 2:50) with 1:30 recovery. 15min cool down (3km).

Wed Sep 6

AM 18km moderate (75min)

PM 10km easy (40min)

Thu Sep 7

AM 30km Tempo Run: 1hr42min – challenging course and conditions today.

Fri Sep 8

AM 16km easy-moderate (63min)

PM 11km easy (40min)

Sat Sep 9

AM Fartlek: 10min warm up (2km). 13 x (3min hard, 1min easy) at an average pace of 2:55-3:00/km on cross country course. Recoveries very easy jogging. 15min cool down (3km)

Sun Sep 10

AM 22km easy-moderate (83min)

Mon Sep 11

AM 21km moderate (71min)

PM 10km easy (40min)

Tue Sep 12

AM Track: 15min warm up (3km). 14 x 800m in 2:10-2:12 with 90sec recovery. 15min cool down (3km)

Wed Sep 13

AM 18km moderate (75min)

PM 10km easy (40min)

Thu Sep 14

PM 40km Tempo Run: 2hrs15min – challenging cross country course

Fri Sep 15

AM 18km easy-moderate (74min)

PM 10km easy (41min)

Sat Sep 16

AM Fartlek: 10min warm up (2km). 20 x (2min on, 1min off) with reps at an average pace of around 2:50-2:55/km and recoveries an easy jog. 15min cool down (3km)

Sun Sep 17

AM 20km easy-moderate (77min)

Mon Sep 18

AM 21km moderate (71min) on flat course (Eldoret)

PM 11km easy (45min)

Tue Sep 19

AM Track: 15min warm up (3km). 12 x 400m (90sec rest) in 63-64. This was a relaxed workout, focusing on rhythm.

Wed Sep 20

AM Travel from Eldoret to Berlin

[This is an excerpt from the Eliud Kipchoge Edition – a 33 page e-book on the training on Eliud Kipchoge]

http://www.sweatelite.co/eliud-kipchoge-full-training-log-leading-marathon-world-record-attempt/

Eliud Kipchoge has an Olympic gold medal and a 2:03:05 marathon PR.

Unfortunately, Eliud Kipchoge does not train the "correct" way.

The experts know the "correct' way.

Eliud Kipchoge has done consistent high volume and high intensity training at high altitude for many years.

His training program is not complicated at all.

His training program is absolutely simple...and hard.

Eliud Kipchoge does not do lots of volume at specific marathon pace.

He does high volume at slower than specific marathon pace.

He runs his long runs every week on Thursday, alternating 30km and 40km runs every other week, which are done at slower than specific marathon pace. There are no segments in the long run with specific marathon pace or faster than marathon pace or tempo pace.

He does the exact same training structure every week.

Tuesday is always an interval track workout which will have specific race paces.

Thursday is always a long run.

Saturday is always a fartlek workout.

All of the other days are recovery runs.

There are zero "special blocks."

His simple and hard training program seems to work OK.

30K in 1:38 at altitude on dirt roads is still at much higher intensity that traditional marathon (European/US) approaches, no?

Hammer only when you are ready.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

ToBeasy wrote:

-abandon a typical weekly structure (do hard sessions when you are ready for it and not because its Tuesday)

So all these years when I was sore doing a lighter recovery run. I was really a softy. I should have been hammering it out.

There is not a "correct way" for Marathon, like there is not a "correct way" for any other event.

What the most part of you, and, sorry, the most part of coaches, don't understand, is that the most important factor in training is the "individualization". Every person is different from other persons, and every athlete, running the same distance, is different from the other, so the first step is to individuate the basic qualities of everybody, and some time these qualities are not evident, and our task is to discover them.

You seem to forget that Eliud Kipchoge was World Champion of 5000m in 2003, and had PB of 3'33" - 7'27" and 12'46", and his specific qualities were very different from the one of the most part of runners, especially now that many don't have a previous career on track lasting years, but go to marathon directly.

Look at this very simple calculation : between an athlete able running 5000m in 13', and another able running at his best in 13'30", there are 30" of difference for every 5 km, that means a final difference in marathon of 4'10". So, it's clear there are two possibilities only :

a) The athlete is, very simply, WEAKER, and never can reach the same level, or

b) The athlete, who clearly is weaker under the point of view of speed, has more talent in the opposite direction, being more resistant to the specific marathon speed.

The case of Eliud is the first, the case of Sondre is the second.

Sondre NEVER can become faster than Eliud, and working a lot for increasing speed means to make him LESS SLOW, not faster. So, where we can develop his talent ? Making him able to run with continuity long fast runs, including many sectors at marathon pace, or faster, trying to exalt the ability to run for long time at a high percentage of his Threshold.

This is exactly the reason because Karoki was not able to react, and at the end arrived 3 minutes behind. Because, like the most part of Kenyans, he runs very fast the tests, but very slow the recovery, and, after trying a break with few km around 2'50" - 2'53" per km, he needs to slow down, something Sondre didn't do.

Probably, if I was the coach of Eliud, I'd change very little from the training he always uses, thinking of an athlete who had 11 years of continue activity on track at top level. Maybe I could have the idea to ask him some long run faster than what he normally does, maybe not : for deciding, you need to be always with the athlete, analyzing his situation, and deciding what he needs, every time.

However, is a fact that Eliud is not in the norm, like Haile or Kenenisa. For example, in my plans for Kenenisa I didn't follow the same principles I used with Sondre, and in my plans fo Geoffrey Kirui I don't use the same system used by Eliud or by Sondre, but something still different.

Here there is not the competition for who is the best coach : never we can decide, since every coach depends on the results of the athletes he coaches, in the general vision, and these results depend (not only, but in great part) on the talent of the athletes themselves.

So, we can have athletes that are the best, till when another athlete is not able to beat them and/or their records, and coaches who are able to understand the best solution for everybody.

Kipchoge's System is a bit different than Renatos which is fine as different approaches lead to similar outcomes.

However, Kipchoges training is very much closer to that of Renato than to the typical western approach.

He lives with a group where everyone encourage each other to live in a humble way and it is all about training, simple eating and sleeping. In typical western fashion, a group environment often encourages the individuals to let themselves go a little bit once the training is done. "We have done our hard session now, lets celebrate with a pizza or beer."

Kipchoge does very long runs at a brisk pace. Of course not at marathon pace as you can't run 25 miles at pace in practice at altitude. A traditional westerner would run less miles at marathon pace or he would run the same amount but slower.

He does run at marathon pace but breaks it up into intervals. There is no long tempo run at marathon pace. The other session is run at faster than marathon pace.

He often does his sessions over undulating and rough terrain.

Insignificant people live insignificant lives, great people live great lives.

Insignificant people focus on other people and try to tear them down to their (rotten?) level.

Great people focus on improving their own level.

Be great!

It's great with all the detail of Moen's training, which is indeed impressive. I wonder if you would also be able to supply the details of his testing during this period (dates, testing authority, results) and his blood values (dates, levels) during this period? It sounds like (logically) you have a close check on his blood values and lactate threshold levels so one assumes that you have this information?

The problem for many observers, myself included, is that we've heard and seen all this before, and then people have turned out to be doped. So when we see breakthrough performances like this (and there were many more in 2017), then I believe that the onus is on the athlete/coach to demonstrate that they are clean, rather than the other way around. The attitude 'I don't care what you think, I know I'm clean' doesn't wash anymore.

In Moen's case we have a history of:

- his previous coach was convicted of doping and sent to jail (nothing to do with you, but....)

- training for large parts of the year in a country/location with poor doping/testing record (lack of testing, no blood testing internally in the country, country has been WADA non-compliant, reports of athletes being tipped off before tests are carried out, athletes testing positive to EPO)

- extremely impressive improvements over a short period of time

- a history of doping within endurance sport

- a culture of doping/grey areas within Norwegian sport (see Sundby, Johaug, other Norwegian cross-country skiers)

But 'you can't prove a negative' goes the argument? Well, possibly not, but you can go a long way towards this goal than any athlete currently does. Stating what supplements the athlete takes (as you have done) is one step. Publishing doping tests and blood values is another obvious one. Sure, athletes have varying levels of Hct/Hb, but the whole point of the biological passport is that for an individual athlete, these values should not fluctuate wildly.

You are not going to receive a sensible response. He will just claim that EPO doesn't work for athletes who live and train at altitude. Only the weak use dope.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Athletes and coaches should make an effort to convince people they are clean, to a certain degree anyways. In the case of Moen, I think it's unfair to use the fact that two cross country skiers have been caught (for minor offenses if you look into the cases), since he has basically no affiliation to the cross country skiing federation, or any other national federation for that matter, as he spends most of his time in Kenya, and not getting assistance from the Norwegian olympic association or athletics federation.

Moreover, testing in Kenya has improved, and Moen says himself that he has been tested regularly for the last years.

We can't know if an athlete is doping (unless he/she has tested positive), so all there is left is trust.

[/quote] I agree with a lot of what you say. Athletes and coaches should make an effort to convince people they are clean, to a certain degree anyways. In the case of Moen, I think it's unfair to use the fact that two cross country skiers have been caught (for minor offenses if you look into the cases), since he has basically no affiliation to the cross country skiing federation, or any other national federation for that matter, as he spends most of his time in Kenya, and not getting assistance from the Norwegian olympic association or athletics federation.

Moreover, testing in Kenya has improved, and Moen says himself that he has been tested regularly for the last years.

We can't know if an athlete is doping (unless he/she has tested positive), so all there is left is trust.[/quote]

Thanks - re: the cross-country skiers, I wasn't really associating Moen with them, more that this fact only increases the onus on someone like him to demonstrate he is clean. (Re: the cases, well, like other dopers, that's what they want you to believe. CAS thought Johaug's offence was serious enough to extend the ban to 18 months. She has a big PR effort underway to make us all believe it was a terrible misunderstanding of course. And the last time you took your asthma medication through a nebuliser, a la Sundby? It was only after Sundby's case came to light that we realised that the whole Norwegian team were taking asthma medication despite not having asthma.....

http://www.tv2.no/sport/8541900/

)

Testing in Kenya has improved? Possibly, but we don't really know because the lack of transparency around testing is useless. Great that Moen has been tested regularly for the last years - put the results (dates, testing authorities, results) out there then!

It seems Mr. Lofshus is spewing nonsense in all directions. Logic is not his strongest suit.