Norwegian runner Sondre Moen 59:47 in Valencia half. 3rd best half by a non-african ever

calculo wrote:

running is science not art drivel

If running was science, then every runner should do tabatha, or HIIT several times a week. Where's the scientific foundation for long tempo runs, fartleks, cruise intervals etc, that top runners do all the time? Running is empirical; training is based on what we already know is working, just like most modern traning systems are either based, or heavily influenced, by what Lydiard found out in the 60s.

Also, hill running is scientifically proven to improve the running economy and 5000m times.

Norwho wrote:

calculo wrote:

running is science not art drivel

If running was science, then every runner should do tabatha, or HIIT several times a week. Where's the scientific foundation for long tempo runs, fartleks, cruise intervals etc, that top runners do all the time? Running is empirical; training is based on what we already know is working, just like most modern traning systems are either based, or heavily influenced, by what Lydiard found out in the 60s.

Also, hill running is scientifically proven to improve the running economy and 5000m times.

We all know that ventolin/calculo is an idiot. I don´t know why he isn´t banned from LR.

The scientific foundation is all the athletes who excel. They are the real long-term experiments. Short-term experiments in the lab, i.e. most studies carried out by exercise physiologists are just that, short-term experiments.

Calculo, the most important factor in the methodology is the INDIVIDUALIZATION of training.

If you want a very nice cloth, you look for a very good tailor, and his first action is to MEASURE you. You can chose the MODEL of the cloth, but the cloth must be made according your measures, and can have some difference from the same model for another person.

The cloth of an athlete is his training. So, the training philosophy can be the same, BUT THE PARTICULARS OF INDIVIDUAL TRAINING CAN HAVE DIFFERENCES, and this is one of the reasons because many try to understand my "system" and say it's complicated : the system is not complicated, but is applied to different INDIVIDUALS, and any athlete has some particular making him different from other runners.

I'm not against weight training : I used frequently, WHEN I THINK CAN BE USEFUL, and this is NOT what always happens.

This is the list of athletes of 800m in top 100 that NEVER used weight lifting, but exercises at natural load in dynamic way :

Wilfred Bungei (Olympic Champion 2008) 1:42.34

Japhet Kimutai 1:42.69

Fred Onyancha 1:42.79

Gregory Konchellah (Kamal) 1:42.79

William Yampoy 1:42.91

Kennedy Kimwetich 1:43.03 (and 2:13.49 in 1000m)

Abraham Rotich 1:43.13

Joseph Mutua 1:43.33

Nicholas Kipkoech 1:43.37

Leonard Kosencha 1:43.40

Mike Boit 1:43.57

Edwin Melly 1:43.81

Some of them was coached DIRECTLY by myself (Kimwetich, Mutua, Kosencha, Melly), some other by my Italian friend Gianni Ghidini (Bungei, Konchellah, Yampoy), who also coaches Tuka, who on the opposite uses very heavy weight training.

For deciding which type of training is the best for one athlete, a coach must to see the following points :

1) Morphology (length of the legs, size of the bones, total mass of the body)

2) Biomechanics (athletes with very high frequency in their action DON'T require weight training, that can be DANGEROUS for the performance)

3) Aerobic level (speaking about 800m, if an athlete doesn't have a strong aerobic engine, like for example Tuka or Rodhal, the only way for reaching top levels is to become stronger in his muscles, increasing strength and lactic capacity)

4) Elasticity and Reactivity (using heavy weights reduces the reactivity and the elasticity, since goes to change the balance between contractile fibers and elastic fibers)

5) Enviroment of training (running every day in hilly roads and on not even surfaces has already an action on the elastic strength very much more DIRECT than every type of exercise in a gym)

Your idea to generalize training for different athletes, thinking there is a SYSTEM working for everybody, is the opposite of what really works, and the ability to give a right INDIVIDUAL TRAINING (using scientific knowledge in the interpretation of what really athletes need) is the reason because we speak about ART and not science.

MakwalaFan wrote:

Moen already ran a marathon earlier this year, Hannover in April where he was 3rd in 2:10:07

Looks like he's on the US marathon training plan!

calculo wrote:

i don't think he has got anywhere close to his shorter distance potential pb's

nearest line of fit i coud find ( only to 0.25s for 400/800 0 -> his current line of fit is

~ 55.00 / 1'54.50

->

3'42.34

7'41.55

13'09.98 !

27'16.22 !!

59'39.83

the M potential i'll post now is astonishing !!!

i didn't include it in main list above as he's not training for the M but 1/2M & 10k/5k

however, theoretically, if his 400 - 1/2M ablity extended perfectly to M off his 1/2M/10k training ( which is impossible ), his estimate for a M is

2"03'17 !!!

that figure comes up because his 400/800/1500 speed is so slow that he basically doesn't slow with increasing race distance

i'll be honest : if he transitions properly to the M, the guy can run "03/2"04 !!!???

bump

as i said, if/when he has "filled out" properly into the M & his body has built up/retained the sustained increased endurance required for M compared to 1/2M, i woud expect him to run 2"03/2"04

so running a 2"05+ is expected on a debut whilst his body is still transitioning to much huger mileage

injury/illness free for a year or 2 & assuming his body can handle the increased quality mileage, to match his "expected" 400m - 1/2M line of fit, he shoud be looking at 2"03/2"04 ability say by tokyo at latest & perhaps even by doha

if he follows an expected improvement curve, he shoud be looking at 2"04+ next year & possibly into 2"03s by '19 which woud be expected limit from his provisional line of fit, but even that can change !

This is his fourth marathon, smartass

yes

but individualization of training doesn't mean you defenestrate a huge part of the training, as in weight-training !!!

if Salazar or such minded coach came upto you advising you to incorporate serious weight-training into a regime, such as which took mo from ~ 27-flat ability to ~ 26'30 ability with only increase of a coupla pounds in body weight, i expect your response woud be akin to this :

& if you want to make an Armani suit, you need silk

you cannot achieve the best suit nor will customer accept it without the correct cloth which is silk

& the cloth of the suit is silk which is the weight-training for Kenayans

no

your system completely abrogates weight-training which the highest achieving coach in the world of past decade in Salazar says is essential to ultimate development of an east african as he has shown with mo

your particulars of training are very particular !!!

you have completely thrown out the weight-training !!!

in fact you have never used it !!!

with who ?

this is absolutely shocking !!! & cringeworthy !!!

those Kenyans ran those times & some won all those gold medals & they never did any weight-training at all !!!

weight-training which any modern, not even that enlightened a coach, knows is an an absolute essential in maximising 800 performance

if Salazar had got these guys & forced them to do some weight-training like mo, & mo was likely just as those above to be reluctant to do it but he listened & obeyed, each one of those guys shouda been looking at a pb 1 - 2s quicker depending on how well a responder they were to the weight-training

so ?

mo had long legs, thin bones & low mass

he responded just fine to weight-training

no

you don't understand physics

frequency is irrelevant

weight-training means greater leg strength, greater "thrust" off the ground, thus greater trajectory or stride-length

it can increase stride by 1 or 2% which regardless of possible fractional reduction in frequency shoud still -> quicker

we are not talking europeans, we are talking Kenyans

aerobic level is nothing they have to worry about at all !!!

they have huge aerobic levels

they need the reverse of the europeans - weight-training strength

you can't see the puzzle ?

those europeans have the weight-training but not the aerobic level & were always trying to achieve latter

the Kenyans have the aerobic level but not the weight-training but are never even trying to achieve it under your coaching

have you learnt nothing from Salazar & his work on mo ???

a trivial concern

we are not asking these kenyans to squat 500, just some regular squats/presses to increase strength by a noticeable quantifiable level as with mo with little weight-gain

this level of weight-training will have negligible effect on elasticity but may even increase reactivity by increasing neuronal stimulation from reps of weight-training

NO

it doesn't

hill running is NOT the same as proper regimented weight-training sessions

you are advocating something like that dynamic-tension nonsense they used in '70s to build strength, using something ike this instead of proper weights :

do you think Schwarzenegger won 5 Mr. Olympias or Kazmaier bench nearly 700 in the '70s using that ???

no

your "art" has thrown out all weight-training which a "scientific" coach in Salazar has shown just how incredible the results can be using a "scientific" approach on mo & also rupp to 26'44 & not scrabbling around calling it "art"

the paradigm is Salazar & he has shown that coaching is a science not an art

learn...

no5 wrote:

This is his fourth marathon, smartass

If he just bothered to look up 4 posts to the reply to MakwalaFan he would have seen it wasn’t his 1st marathon this year. Happy smug face time ?

Calculo, I respect that you disagree with Canova on this matter, but some of your points are far-fetched.

And using Salazar as a template is really disturbing, remember he is currently under investigation for doping breaches, and the evidence pretty much shows that at least Rupp has been/is doping.

2"03'17 !!!

Oh no somebody's calculator is 2:30 out. What would we expect?

Calculo/Ventolin

I wish to thank you for writing in such a distinctive structure. It saves me a LOT of time when I'm trying to navigate through all the trash on letsrun. I honestly haven't read any of your comments for at least 5 years.

Meh stop your godlike love of Canova. Yes, he has experience and yes he should know what he is doing, but remember that he is poaching the top runners from Africa and around the world. Ventolin is correct that science has improved a lot of coaching, but Canova is right that coaching is also an art.

Salazar has got many Americans now believing they can beat the Africans, and they often now do. Ten years ago, we would have never have believed that Rupp, Coburn, Jager, Simpson, Centrowitz and Flanagan could ever do the things they've done.

800 coach wrote:

Meh stop your godlike love of Canova. Yes, he has experience and yes he should know what he is doing, but remember that he is poaching the top runners from Africa and around the world. Ventolin is correct that science has improved a lot of coaching, but Canova is right that coaching is also an art.

Salazar has got many Americans now believing they can beat the Africans, and they often now do. Ten years ago, we would have never have believed that Rupp, Coburn, Jager, Simpson, Centrowitz and Flanagan could ever do the things they've done.

And it should be pointed out that only 2 of those athletes are coached by Salazar. It was Solinsky, another non-Salazar athlete, that really put on display what a 'non-African' athlete can do. His performance inspired Rupp to be the runner he is today.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

James1 wrote:

calculo, show us your coaching career history & results

many thanks

+1?

I suppose Tegenkamp also inspired a new generation of US runners!!!!

The race that launched the New Era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkZ7OGB1ctU

800 coach wrote:

Meh stop your godlike love of Canova. Yes, he has experience and yes he should know what he is doing, but remember that he is poaching the top runners from Africa and around the world. Ventolin is correct that science has improved a lot of coaching, but Canova is right that coaching is also an art.

Salazar has got many Americans now believing they can beat the Africans, and they often now do. Ten years ago, we would have never have believed that Rupp, Coburn, Jager, Simpson, Centrowitz and Flanagan could ever do the things they've done.

Canova is not 'poaching' top runners, Sondre Moen asked Renato to become his coach.

I'm not here to say who's the best coach but to learn.

Canova is not God but there's lots of wisdom in his posts and you should feel blessed to read detailed training plans and suggestions posted here instead of trying hard to discredit him.

Have Salazar ever cared to share his current method details here?