Doesn't Russian Doping Scandal Prove Canova is Right about EPO?

rekrunner wrote:

you can not argue that EPO helps set European records.

?????

"Spanish 5,000m champ Sergio Sánchez found to have used EPO"

Solution Seeker wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

you can not argue that EPO helps set European records. We already know EPO works for non-elite athletes who are poorly trained.

????

"European 5,000 metres indoor record-holder Alberto Garcia received a two-year ban from the Spanish Athletics Federation on Tuesday following his positive test for the blood-boosting drug EPO (erythropoietin)."

Just wait for the shifting goalposts.

There is no evidence so strong that rekrunner can't ignore it or explain it away.

i have to say that renato is no officially the most annoying a$$hole on this site. just like lance armstrong the stupidity and arrogance that comes out of his mouth is so annoying. if i was you renato i would shut up, the more you bark and bark that you are some genius track guru and PEDs dont work on kenyans the more and more of your words will cause your downfall.

i honestly cant wait to see you fall and fall hard. deny deny deny all you want, you can call us all morons and how we just dont know anything. yeah ok, epo makes kenyans slower but makes everyone else faster....its the masking agent for malaria therapy so its all good....

the more you brag on and on and call us morons the more i cant wait for your mouth to be silenced by someone finally calling you out and going in private investigation style to show the world how much of a fraud you are.

yes kenyans have more distance talent per capita than the rest of the world, but really you take away the EPO and most are all back to what was always known....just more depth at the 2:07-08 range, you add epo and boom your getting 5 min on a marathon. ritz runs 2:07, which means he is only a 2:12 guy. deny all you want renato deny deny deny

high 12's low 13's is about the max, look at henry rono, thats what drug free and maximal talent gets you. or do you not think he was that good?

if i had the finances i would go around you and your group and expose you. i wish the brothers would hassle you like the hassled gatlin, enough is enough

file:///C:/Users/60024086/Downloads/List%20of%20athletes%20currently%20serving%20a%20period%20of%20ineligibility%20as%20a%20result%20of%20an%20anti-doping%20rule%20violation%20under%20IAAF%20rules%20(1).pdf

so tell me how is it that everyone in the world can gain from EPO but not kenyans? so what about Marion Jones? Barry Bonds, Tim Montgomery, Lance Armstrong...was it just a waste of money? or is it only a waste of money on kenyans? what elevation are some of the moroccans from? or are you saying it only doesnt work on super fit genetically superior kenyans that are from altitude...everyone else from altitude it works for? what about mountaineers using EPO in the Himalaya's so they dont have to use bottled oxygen? that shouldnt make sense!!?! they are superiour endurance athletes working waaaaay high in elevation, you would think EPO wouldnt work right? oh wait...its only the top 1% of kenyans it doesnt work for.

so let me get this straight renato, you claim EPO doesnt work on the top 1% of kenyans, and when it does work it only lets them get to top fitness faster than by normal traininig, right? and if your 1% kenyans are the max ability of all humans then EPO allows for slow lazy whites (americans/europeans) to get close to what is physically possible for humans (aka the 1% of "YOUR" kenyans).

so if you are the guru in all that is distance couching and the physiological effects of PEDs on the worlds top 1% athletes then should EPO be legal to level the playing field?

nope i think you are a fraud, and you do coach some of the best and with EPO they are above the rest. and with you proclaiming it doesnt work on your athletes the brothers and others turn a blind eye on you like they do for paula. even if your right and EPO's effects are minimal when your athletes are at 100% fitness, you still claim it allows them to cheat their way to that fitness faster than what is normally possible...thus it shortens training TIME, thus its a PED. now your saying its used in malaria treatment...i wonder how many of the top kenyans have had this "treatment" 5-6 months before they dropped big times.....anyone want to investigate?

i wish Colm O’Connell would post on here....i have a feeling he is way more grounded and realistic than renato. as the article says, at first denial then anger that its so rampant.....at least he isnt turning the blind eye and denying it.

as renato claims it can allow you to get to your top fitness level faster than doing the big natural base and aerobic training....again this is cheating, but let him deny it.

so think about it. how long is the minimal base phase? 6 weeks? so you eliminate that down to what 3 weeks? and then you can start your interval and anaerobic training phases sooner, allowing you to peak 3 or 4 times a year. now why would anyone want to do that? oh yeah cause you can do more prize money races duh

You are wrong. It is pretty much universal practice in medicine and in doping to extrapolate in this way. WADA looked at the mechanisms involved and the broad based evidence for efficacy of EPO and decided it was an effective PED and banned it for all competitors.

yeah and lance didnt go from mid pack to total domination just by having a better mentality....he did it the same way paula did it. with the best doctors to maximize the PEDs he was taking.

EPO

HGH

the clear

IGF-1

masking agents

blood thinners

insulin injections

thyroid injections

blood transfusions

steroids

hyperbaric chambers

diuretics

amphetamines

beta blockers

anit-inflammatory

Beta-2 Agonists

Hormone Antagonists & Modulators

oh and paying off the right people when results come back hot, or in lance/paula's cause have a lab test you before you get tested to see that you are always looking perfect

i agree with spencer wrote:

oh and paying off the right people when results come back hot, or in lance/paula's cause have a lab test you before you get tested to see that you are always looking perfect

It also helps to have Dr. Saugy as best buddy and unofficial or official advisor.

And in Paula's case, have those privately tested samples, that at the time came up clear, frozen and kept so she can have them retested years later to show she was clean Oh, hang on a sec...

I never denied taking EPO is cheating. Simply, I explained WHEN EPO can help some top athlete living and training in altitude.

About the minimal base phase, we need to distinguish if the athlete comes from another marathon, but doesn't have any problem, or if comes (as the case of Rita) from a long stop for injury.

In the first case, after about two weeks of recovery, we can have a minimal basic training no longer than 4 weeks, because the aerobic level of the athletes is still at 90%, and EPO can't help him.

In the second case, the minimal base phase, in order to become able to train again in proper way, under the point of view of volume and intensity, can be longer than 3 months (depending on how long was the period of stop). So, in this case the athlete can't peak 3 or 4 times a year, since needs more than 6 months for recovering a good shape after the injury.

I see that, when we speak of methodology, there is very little knowledge about type of training and time needed for reaching a top shape. And again this lack of specific knowledge is combined with an over evaluation of the effects of doping, of course for people not knowing the effects of training.

What can have all these practices to do with Kenyan runners ? Do you realize than the cost of the "advanced doping" of Lance Armstrong was higher than all the cost of all the doping existing in Africa ?

You continue to compare the budget for projecting, creating, assembling and developing a rocket with the budget for projecting, creating, assembling and developing a bike.

Are you really not able to understand the difference, or you want of your own will to create confusion in the mind of people not expert in running at top level ?

Translation : are you really stupid, or too smart, but not honest ?

true you never denied it was cheating, you just proclaimed that NO KENYAN who is the top 1% takes it.

then you change your stance and say it will help any athlete who is out of shape, be it injury or illness....renato i think you are in this belief that me, and countless others on here are morons. i mean you and vent/calculo call us all morons all the time but really come on man.

you think im dumb to think that an athlete is going to take EPO during the "peak" phase of training? no im not that dumb, the athlete no matter how amazing they are will take it during the BASE PHASE, and then prob micro less and less as the phases change. you act like you are the only one who understands training phases.

what good would EPO when you are trying to peak? it takes like what 3 weeks to make its full effect right?

your second case....this is why EPO is being used, it allows for quicker base building, either after you shut down for the season (dont tell me your athletes never take a small week or two week break after cross or track), and yes from sickness or injury

so why would you take EPO after your season is over with during your next base phase? well if we are all as dumb and renato and calculo imagine us there would be no point, well number one it doesnt work and two if im not injured it wont work.

no you take it during your next base phase for the exact reasons you stated volume and intensity. so your new base phase you can do faster tempos while still maintaining low HR, who this is so insane of a concept! also with more blood to transport oxygen, nutrients and waste you can recover faster and not be as prone to injury.

so yes renato if you plan out the year right you can peak 3 times, or two times if you stretch the base phase longer. but what do i know, not like i ran track all the way through college, took classes on it, read books and had one of the best coaches in the US. no im moron and drivel for doubting you and not believing jim ryan could run a 3:24

i mention the advance doping of those to prove a point, lance was a run of the mill and became the BEST EVER, same as paula....are you so blind? do you not remember seville 99? 10K yeah she didnt win, but then goes on to run 3 min faster than ANY OF THOSE plus others! and guess what they all got busted. why? cause they didnt have the advance doping and finances to cover it up.

what does that have to do with you? cause your claiming that epo doesnt work over and over. it can take run of the mill guys and make them the best, or take a 2:07 kenyan to 2:04-5 range, call me stupid all you want this is the reality. EPO works, its a short cut to gain maximum BASE phase, allows for faster recovery, to train at faster tempos while at lower HR, and helps the body from injury.

and enough of this crying that kenya is neanderthal society. they have smart phones, nice cars, universities etc. or are you racist to think that the docs and pharmacy guys in kenyan cant figure out how to do this doping to minimize getting busted? well maybe they cant and thats why guys like you are there getting paid.

like aden isnt shady? rossa? all the people getting busted....it sounds like the pathetic american sprinters excuses when getting busted.

Jamaica was always good at sprinting but boom then they destroyed, and one by one they all go down with more strict testing, each one with excuses, each one running way slower.

just wait to see it happen on the Kenyan and Ethiopian side of things

but yes please call me stupid again and again.

Who is "Jim Ryan", mr. i agree with specncer.

How are we supposed to take you seriously in a conversation with Canova?

I trust his knowledge and results more than anything you have done in your life.

jim ryun....yeah your right cause that guy denies PEDs work on kenyans

you dont have to take me serious, but you also dont have to believe his flamboyant bull$hit. its almost as bad as the idea that blacks cant be quarterbacks.

i give questions and instead of answering them directly, he calls me stupid like vent/calculo does when anyone disagrees with his running calculations. and you discredit anything i have ever done in my life because typing quickly i misspell ryun....well i predicted Van Niekerk would run under 43.18....but noooo i was called an idiot by vent/calculo saying it would be merrit. after i proved over and over with REAL stats i was still hassled.

then finally they banned vent, and i was correct. let me ask you this, why is renato your GOD of distance running? why hasnt he done anything besides kenya? why is his flail insight on runners taken as if he is JESUS FREAKING CHRIST OF RUNNING?

really come on, "his mind is stronger" and other $hit like that, i have know plenty of mentally strong people that have insane pain tolerance but as far as running is concered they sucked. he is vague and a liar, and you say it like i do you get bashed and posts get deleted. but wejo and rojo rant on about minorites, brag about how they attack alberto, and gatlin over and over. so if i had a website then i could have free reign to call out renato on his lies?

trust in what you want to trust in, i ran track and field from 4th grade till one year after college. again call me an idiot, did you read any of joe vigil's stuff? or joe newtons book? or run under damon martin at adams state? no you didnt you ran for some weak div 3 or NAIA and have no idea about proper training. or did you read seb coes dads book?

no you red PRE and running with the buffaloes and rubbed it out to the poster of rupp in his face mask when it came out

Wow. I am shocked that rekrunner did not correct these erroneous statements.

Renato, it was not the "organizers of Major" who decided that; it was an official ruling of CAS, referring to IAAF rule no. 40. In other words, there was enough evidence to prove that Rita already doped before Boston.

Solution Seeker wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

If the documented Spanish and Portuguese cases are not the ones who set the European records, you can not argue that EPO helps set European records.

????

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-05-22/mourhit-suspended-until-may-2004-report/1858206

"The European record holder over 3,000 metres, 5,000m and 10,000m tested positive for the endurance-boosting substance EPO and a masking product on May last year ahead of the World Half Marathon championships in Brussels."

More from Wiki on Mourhit:

Mohammed Mourhit (Arabic: محمد مُرحيت‎‎) (born 10 October 1970 in Khouribga, Morocco) is a Belgian top cross country, middle and long distance runner who holds two European records, in the 3000 m and 5000 m. He is also a former European 10000 m record holder. He won a bronze medal at the 1999 World Championships in the 5000 metres and a silver medal at the 2001 IAAF World Indoor Championships in the 3000 metres behind Hicham El Guerrouj. Mourhit was also a two-time winner of the IAAF World Cross Country Championships in the long course in 2000 and 2001. He also won the Lisbon Half Marathon 1997.[1]

He earned the Belgian citizenship in 1997 by marriage. He competed in Lotto Cross Cup cross country meetings and won the domestic series in 1996–97 and 1997–98.[2]

He was suspended for the use of EPO in 2002. He returned to competition in 2004, after seeing his ban reduced,[3] and qualified for the World Championships in Helsinki 2005.[4]

He holds the fastest non-winning time for the 3000 metres. In Monaco on 18 August 2000, he ran 7:26.62, coming second to Ali Saïdi-Sief. No other man has broken 7:27 and come second.

Personal bests[edit]

3000 m – 7:26.62 (7th all-time)

5000 m – 12:49.71 (15th all-time)

10000 m – 26:52.30 (32nd all-time)

He held 3 European records…but was still beaten by the Algerian doper Ali Saidi-Sief. That was unfortunate.

Of course, Renato and rekrunner will say that he does not count since he was born in Morocco and trained at low altitude in Belgium.

Darn.

Here is some more from Renato Canova on Rita Jeptoo from earlier this year:

..."Rita started her activity with me in Italy in 1999, when was 18 only. She didn't seem talented for long distances…

..."She started again in 2011, running 2:28:09 in Rotterdam, then, at the end of the year, ran Frankfurt in 2:25:44 for the 5th position.

In 2012, she ran Boston in 2:35:53, and finally understood that, with the husband as coach, her career was over. She joined the Group of Claudio Berardelli, and started to train with Prisca Jeptoo and some pacer.

Claudio himself told me was surprised by the motivation, and the ability to work very hard, she showed with him. And she had the big skip of quality, arriving 2nd in Chicago with 2:22:04 (intrinsically worse than the 2:23:38 of Boston 6 years before...).

She became more professional, having big motivation and good technical support, and in 2013, after winning Boston in 2:26, won Chicago running 2:19:57. Nobody could be surprised of this result, looking at her training approach.

In 2014, the big victory in Boston (2:18:57), in a race where ALL THE BEST RUNNERS were very fast, because of the pace of Shalan Flanagan (same situation of Boston 2011 for men : not because the wind, but because the pace of Ryan Hall). So, no surprise at all.

She was caught in a OOC test in Kenya at half of September. If doping is so effective, why she ran only 2:24:35 in Chicago, when already doped ?

So, what did happen in the mind of Rita before Chicago ?

She was in competition for the jackpot of 500,000 USD, and somebody purposed her some illegal support, explaining she needed to be sure to win Chicago in order to have the money. Rita had skiatic problems from the end of July, and her training was not very good, so supposed that, trying to take EPO, could replace the training she didn't do.

The dream of so much money changed her mind, that became weak for that reason.

And she won a "poor" edition of Chicago, in perfect weather conditions (the first 3 men under 2:05 : Kipchoge 2:04:11, Kitwara 2:04:28 and Chumba 2:04:32, while Rita ran 2:24:35 against Mare Dibaba (2:25:37) and a Florence Kiplagat in bad condition (2:25:57) for a problem in her back during the last 3 weeks of training).

So, which advantage EPO gave her, if she ran a race almost 5 minutes slower than her PB ? Of course, you can argue she was already doped when she ran in Boston at the beginning of the season, but the fact is we have ONE PROOF of doping after July, NO PROOVES of doping before that date, and for me (who knows Rita very well) there is not surprise at all looking at her performances BEFORE being caught for EPO.

You can remain of your idea, and I remain of my idea. However, I explained what I think and what I know, using the logic and not stereotypes already present in your mind."

Read more:

rjm33 wrote:

Here is some more from Renato Canova on Rita Jeptoo from earlier this year:

"So, which advantage EPO gave her, if she ran a race almost 5 minutes slower than her PB ? Of course, you can argue she was already doped when she ran in Boston at the beginning of the season, but the fact is we have ONE PROOF of doping after July, NO PROOVES of doping before that date, and for me (who knows Rita very well) there is not surprise at all looking at her performances BEFORE being caught for EPO.

You can remain of your idea, and I remain of my idea. However, I explained what I think and what I know, using the logic and not stereotypes already present in your mind."

Interesting. And now, surprise surprise, we do have proof according to CAS that she was already doping before Boston.