Lynsey Sharpe breaks down in tears after 'womens' 800, asks for people at top to sort it out

This problem was created by the IAAF, so people will beg the IAAF to come to the rescue, and to solve the problem that they created in the first place.

This is a typical thing that is done by governing bodies to increase their stature.

Definitely not Blankenship wrote:

Disagree. I would much rather watch a race won in 1:55 than one won in 1:57. If Semenya is creating a more quality race with better times AND graciously representing a previously nonexistent class in the sport, that is good, no great!, for business.

I think what matters more than time is that it was a contest. There wasn't much of a contest on Saturday. The only competition was to find out if Melissa Bishop's superb training and flawless form was enough to overcome Margaret Wambui's lumbering and awkward stride down the backstretch. It wasn't, because the contest was rigged.

I like watching women's track. I hate the idea that it's going to be dominated by a handful of intersex athletes who render the rest of the field irrelevant. I probably won't end up watching women's track much longer if this shit keeps up.

The IAAF needs to get their act together and demonstrate to CAS what is blindingly obvious to any casual observer: that being intersex in a women's race constitutes a ridiculous advantage.

And look at the PR message being delivered to young girls getting into running: You have to have a rare genetic condition that gives you extra testosterone resulting in a masculine body to be the best in this sport. Kids need to be inspired by stars, not have it rubbed in their faces that they don't have what it takes. As I said, bad for business.

Still, if the Olympic games were pure sport for the sake of sport, no money, no fame, no TV, I'd say, let her run and win 50 straight races. There's a good chance she wouldn't bother, and all would be happy.

Since CAS has ruled that the IAAF can't separate women's and men's athletic categories based on testosterone levels, all the IAAF needs to do is make new rules that sort those who are Genetically male AND/OR Phenotypically male into the open (male) division. When I say "genetically male," or "Phenotypically male," I'm speaking in pure biological terms, not political terms, because I'm putting forward a plan to solve this problem, instead of trying to promote a social agenda.

Dividing out the protected women's category from the open (men's) category based on Phenotype and Genotype is a little complicated. But it's not as complicated as those with a social agenda want you to believe. The vast majority of individuals can be sorted into the men's division based on fairly strait forward genetic tests that look for genes normally found on the Y chromosome. If you have the Y chromosome, or any gene from the Y chromosome, you are considered Genetically male. The speculation around Castor is that she has the Y chromosome, but is also androgen insensitive to a certain degree. However, she is not completely insensitive to androgen because her body obviously developed some male traits at some point in her life. This of course gives her an unfair advantage over normal (XX) females. The need for Phenotypic testing comes in because there are those extremely rare individuals that are XX males who lack the SYR gene. But, they are still Phenotypically male. So it is even easier to sort them into the men's category based on simple observations of male anatomy

Giving a blood sample for genetic testing, or showing your anatomy, is no more intrusive than the current PED testing that is already in place. For this rule to be fairly instituted, the genetic testing would need to take place as early as is feasibly possible at the start of one's athletic career. It would be heartbreaking to start achieving success in the professional level in women's sport, and then be told you aren't allowed to compete against women. Although I don't like that Castor won the gold medal, I can sympathize with her plight. However, a greater measure of sympathy must be given to the dozens of xx women who are loosing out on career achievements because of intersex athletes crowding out the top spots.

Early genetic testing would of course cost more money, so this is probably the reason the IAAF has not instituted these common sense rules to protect the women's events. Like most wrongs in the world, the source of the wrong is not some sinister plot, but just people protecting their pockets.

In my limited understanding XY testing was what the IAAF used to do in the 80s or 90s. If it's so easy or simple, why did they move away from it?

This ^ is a very sensible post, I've pondered and talked about this issue with a lot of people and for many people it is that visual comparison between Caster and other competitors that makes a lot of people wonder what's going on.

I read that Sports Gene book awhile back and there was that one skier who's body produced naturally high red blood cells or something similar to him using epo (forgive my fact checking here, I actually have to be doing something productive, so I'm writing this quickly). What if he was born today? My point being, where do you draw the line between Caster NATURAL birth condition and setting "man made" definitions of what a woman is?

Our definitions are subject to MANY UNCERTAINTIES, as in Caster's case.

We have our stereotypical picture of what a woman should look like, especially when we compare them visually (eg Caster compared to Allyson Felix) and I think that scares people, that two woman can look so far apart from each other. But that definition, as we see, is too narrow... Scientists are making assumptions and simplifications, anyone here with some scientific background will understand this is true for all scientific endeavors. Science is ever changing and usually only scratches the surface no mater how well we think we understand something.

I'm all for Caster running, not because I'm some social justice warrior, on the contrary, I hate them. But she was born like this, she was born like this in conditions that even the poorest of Americans wouldn't imagine living in, I mean, can you imagine a African Village and these parents giving birth to a child, probably without any medical assistance and taking her to a hospital only a couple of months after she was born and finding out she has a rare condition (I'm not saying this happed in Caster's case, I don't know under what conditions she was born, but it is common among poor African communities). Where do you even begin to try and explain to these people that your girl may look like a girl but she some characteristics similar to men, it must be a difficult thing for parents to understand. The poor child, just imagine you having that conversation with your kid telling her why you don't fit into any group, and kids probaly making fun you or being scared of you?

If she was born a man, with male parts and just decided one day well I feel like a woman therefore I am a woman, I would've crucified her, but Caster did not choose this.

Sorry for my rant, that went on longer than I expected.

I probably also made a ton of typos, just ignore.

I would also like to read Shape's dissertation on the subject, seeing that she was in law school she the definitely has the scientific authority to write on a complicated human genetic condition like that.

Ghastly.Mistakes.at.UKAD.Oh.my wrote:

Remember…anabolic steroids are a placebo effect. They do not really work.

Here is the world record holder in the women's 800m at 1:53.28…set in 1983. It is the oldest women's world record.

Meet Jarmila Kratochvilova:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/11/22/300B77A900000578-0-image-m-27_1452549996865.jpg

She is still 2 seconds faster than Ms. Semenya.

Go Jarmila!!!

isn't she cute. bun huggers for everyone in the w800 please.

I don't know if Semenya is that androgen insensitive. Are there any test results that are known reasonably reliably? Is it known that she was born naturally born with a vagina or that it was surgically created soon after birth (as this is quite common in babies, even until recently in Western Europe, if male babies were born without standard male organs).

Semenya's response to T lowering drugs was a near 10s drop off in time. Everything else about Semenya indicates that Semenya is very sensitive to higher levels of naturally occurring testosterone, produced by internal testes: her phenotype, her lack of female secondary sexual organs, even her response to her supposed "plight" as to take pride in what she is and her legal current status to run and win races, are traits typically associated with males. She congratulates her fellow competitors in a typically male way after races, and they respond to her as many women would when encountering an unwelcome male in an environment usually reserved for females.

Niyonsaba might fall into the category of being more androgen sensitive, but we don't know - we currently live in a world where athletes are tested performance enhancing substances but not for sexual identity in womens' races. So women are supposed to take all the flack, all the detriment, all the damage to their sport so a few don't get upset by testing.

Obviously, as a mere female, I am not permitted to speculate on my typical female instinctive response, and any male, or even partial male, must be able to insult and denigrate anything I have to say on the matter. Alternatively, I am supposed to run faster than anyone not on drugs has ever achieved, or give up any interest in professional sport, despite the fact that I form part of half of the population. In future, unless this is changed, professional sport will be dominated by testosterone, with women barred from taking it even though they might respond better to it than some men in terms of athletic performance, and women will be routinely discriminated against, insulted and told they aren't good enough.

I agree that sex should be the subject of full and thorough testing, as is testing for drugs, and should form part of an athlete's biological passport. I cannot see why Semenya is arguing for greater acceptance of intersex athletes when Semenya is unwilling to state in the public domain what sex she is and how that is achieved, but to simply assume that women are happy to race against Semenya.

As for men who are actually born without penises, or incomplete penises, what does this do for them? Are they all supposed to be intersex now? In Limpopo, where Semenya was born, the rate of this common birth defect is supposed to be around 10%.

I have no problems with Semenya running whatsoever. What I have a problem with is that it is women, and purely women, that have to suffer as a result. There are female athletes who have not made teams, and selection criteria, and finals, also adversely affected by the artificial effect Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui have had on the sport, not just the 3 who should have won womens' medals in the final. It is a travesty.

Let's come to agreement on a couple things since this is going off the rails:

1. It cannot be proven, and is unlikely, that the women who got 4th-8th in the 800m trained harder or better than the women who beat them. I believe a lot of the anger that female athletes comes from this error.

2. Female athletes need to try to put themselves in a male athlete's shoes. We face much tougher odds in terms of going toe-to-toe with superhuman athletes. Over time, we have abandoned the notion that through hard work, we can achieve anything. I will never be a star NFL running back, and I'm okay with that. Not every woman can be an Olympic runner, and that's okay too.

Just put in your miles and try to be a better runner than you were previously. At times, you will lose a race. No big deal.

Lynsey Sharp's pb for 400 is only 54.43 set this year. She simply doesn't have the speed to be one of the best 800m runners. To be really world class at the event a woman needs 51 second speed or better.

IAmAfrikan wrote:

I would also like to read Shape's dissertation on the subject, seeing that she was in law school she the definitely has the scientific authority to write on a complicated human genetic condition like that.

Law and science are different disciplines so it doesn't follow that a law student is worth reading for scientific insight. However you can read the very detailed CAS ruling in the Dutee Chand case, it is very long but worth studying.

161 pages.

BBC news story on the ruling:

What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that IT DOESNT MATTER IF SHE CHOSE IT OR NOT. Why some people think that has any impaction on this discussion I will never understand. All that matters is what IS, and she is not a woman.

The simplest solution to this is to create two categories:

1) open

2) women

The women's category would need to establish specific parameters in order to compete. These could be set in a way to ensure that only actual women compete.

The open category is just that, open. It would obviously look just like the men's category we have now, but would technically be open to those like Caster. She wouldn't be excluded from competing, but would obviously need to improve her pb by about 10 seconds to compete with those more similar to her.

uhhhhh wrote:

All that matters is what IS, and she is not a woman.

Real experts, unlike you, have determined she IS a woman, and NOT a man. Your opinion has 0 value.

I'm a woman today. (I'm actually a man and have been for my entire life but I'm choosing to identify as a woman today). Tomorrow I'll probably go back to identifying as a man. I enjoy making a mockery of this gender identity BS. Melissa Bishop is the gold medallist.

uhhhhh wrote:

The simplest solution to this is to create two categories:

1) open

2) women

The women's category would need to establish specific parameters in order to compete. These could be set in a way to ensure that only actual women compete.

The open category is just that, open. It would obviously look just like the men's category we have now, but would technically be open to those like Caster. She wouldn't be excluded from competing, but would obviously need to improve her pb by about 10 seconds to compete with those more similar to her.

What you described is exactly the system we have now. Caster is a woman. She beat a bunch of slower women. They cried and complained. Nothing needs fixing, it's just sports.

perspective wrote:

Lynsey Sharp's pb for 400 is only 54.43 set this year. She simply doesn't have the speed to be one of the best 800m runners. To be really world class at the event a woman needs 51 second speed or better.

to be the best what? she was fast enough to be the 3rd best at the games

Not a Man wrote:

uhhhhh wrote:

All that matters is what IS, and she is not a woman.

Real experts, unlike you, have determined she IS a woman, and NOT a man. Your opinion has 0 value.

youre an expert? give your qualifications