Minimalist, what was your experience?

Johnston,

1) I grew up wearing big shoes just like most of America. I started my running career running in big shoes and in 2001 I was wearing the GRID Hammer.

2) You can re-learn how to meet the ground, although you will have to take your time. I don't know how late in life is too late. The oldest I've worked with in going from trainers to flats was in his 50s and he's healthier and faster now than when I first met him.

3) Footstrikes change. Almost invariably, most runners I've known instinctively move their footstrike forward when they first get into flats. The technique is such that by the time the foot meets the ground it is already in motion for push-off. Later, the footstrike may or may not move back to the heel. My good friend LaWoof, who trains in modified spikes, lands heel first when running at casual speeds. The difference between his heel strike and that of the typical trainers runner is that he does not slam into the gorund, nor does he over-extend.

4) If technique is good there should be no additional impications of stress fractures. Granted, concrete is unnaturally hard and I don't know all the implications of running barefoot on concrete all the time, but one could argue that a few mm's of compressed, firm foam (as found in the forefoot of the H Streets) is essentially taking a piece of soft earth with you, while still allowing for adequate feedback/adaptation with the ground. I would argue that the compressed, firm, thin foam of the H Streets is much more like natural packed earth than standard EVA found in training shoes, with respect to responsiveness.

5) Interesting you bring up football helmets: I've heard a theory that permenant injuries in the NFL have risen because of increased padding. This is because (in theory) a lineman or other player that is sufficiently padded can run head first and full speed into the knees of an opposing player, thereby causing severe damage. Remove the padding ad, as with running, the technique becomes far more cautious and the impact is far less sloppy. I wonder how permenant injuries compare from American Football to rugby.

6) Your sixth point is dead on.

just trying to keep this thread going so I can learn more about the pros and cons of using more minimal and trul minimal shoes

Whether one agrees with Trackhead or not, he is a great source of info about shoes. I'm hopeful that he'll supply us with a detailed update on what he recommends for us minimalist folk.

.... or a decreased risk of stress fractures! I know you're basing your judgement on your short stint and stress fracture while in advertised "flats". Have you ever reasoned that maybe you had too much cushioning and heel lift and couldn't get the same sensory feedback from the New Balance 900's, New Balance 750's, Nike Air Zoom Streak XC, and Waffle Racers that you'd get from a pair of Puma H Streets? Maybe it was too great of a contrast to jump from these flats to Eldoret II's for track workouts?Personally, I started out in similiar advertised "flats" (Asics Tiger Paws and later the Waffle Racers- higher heel lift than you'd expect), but I found them both to be much more unstable/less sensory feedback compared to the Puma H Streets. Moreso, before I made the switch, I always had problems trying to train in "trainers" and switching to lower profile shoes for speed workouts. Now I do everything in the same shoe, no problems. I think it's unfair for you to reason that less cushioning increases your risk of stress fractures, when you were training in shoes that still had a significant amount of cushioning, which provide less feedback. You could just as well reason that it was too much of a "stress" to switch from these advertised "flats" to spikes for track session.

Furthermore, how do you reason with the fact that my "vulnerable" bones suffered 7 stress fractures (metatarsals, femurs) with "increased cushioning", yet I've had no problems with flats? I'm NOT anatomically blessed.... it's simply not normal for the strongest bone in the body (the femur) to crack 4 times! I have the flattest, baby-soft feet ever from wearing shoes for a majority of my life, but I'm now doing something to strenghthen my "weaknesses." It is possible to adapt and get stronger. Furthermore, I no longer pound the concrete heel-first. You learn to land "lighter."

Again, based on the stats listed above and how each of these shoes effect the footstrike I will disagree with you and say they are more comparable than they are different.

Put it this way -- the precision is mizunos lightweight trainer. It borders on ignorant to say that it's "comparable" to a shoe that is not a lightweight trainer -- it's like calling the Asics DS Trainer a flat.

It is more similar to other lightweight trainers (including those recommended by "minimalists") than it is to typical cushioned trainers. It is nowhere near as squishy in the heel as most midweight cushioned trainers (e.g. the cumulus and pegasus). It has a firm heel which encourages running lightly with a mid/forefoot strike and good turnover. Unlike the trainers you so-called minimalists recommend, it has no medial post.

Also, the "stats" don't tell the full story. In particular, the weight claim is probably wrong. Note that Asics also claim that the magic is 6.5oz (it actually weighs almost exactly the same as the tiger paw -- which is around 8oz according to most sources, including Asics)

please no one else respond to this elflord jackass. Sounds like he's not even willing to entertain any side of the issue but his own (which I think is wrong, but whatever). As for me personally, I just cut 71 seconds off my 1/2 marathon PR after switching to the New Balance RX230 a couple months ago. I'm sure elflord can probably tell me WHY I PR'ed better than I can (can't be the shoes, can it??). I really don't think you can knock training in flats/spikes until you've tried it.

please no one else respond to this elflord jackass.

Oh, the irony. You just did.

Sounds like he's not even willing to entertain any side of the issue but his own

Oh, the irony.

just cut 71 seconds off my 1/2 marathon PR after switching to the New Balance RX230 a couple months ago. I'm sure elflord can probably tell me WHY I PR'ed better than I can (can't be the shoes, can it??).

Could be anything. Maybe it was the shoes, but maybe not. And maybe the change in footwear would affect others differently. If you were to do a proper experiment (instead of this anecdotal BS) with a control group and a treatment group, both groups would run PRs. You need to compare the control condition with the treatment condition so that you can measure the effect size as opposed to just measuring the variable of interest for one condition. You need groups (not one data point) so that you can make variance estimates. That a flats fanatic would be too stupid to understand this comes as no surprise.

I really don't think you can knock training in flats/spikes until you've tried it.

I run about 20 miles in flats each week.

wstuart wrote:

please no one else respond to this elflord jackass. Sounds like he's not even willing to entertain any side of the issue but his own (which I think is wrong, but whatever). As for me personally, I just cut 71 seconds off my 1/2 marathon PR after switching to the New Balance RX230 a couple months ago. I'm sure elflord can probably tell me WHY I PR'ed better than I can (can't be the shoes, can it??). I really don't think you can knock training in flats/spikes until you've tried it.

I suggest you read his responses closer. He is pointed but not uncivil. He offers a sound juxtaposition to minimalism's more strident advocates.

Elflord has made "some" contributions, but mainly has just been argumentative. He makes the point that you can't prove that training in flats will work yet seems to try to prove that trainers are a better way to go despite any personal experience.

I will say that it is a fair opinion, but it hardly warants over 25 posts.

Elflord, in 25 words or less, state your position and your experience and be done with it.

Elflord, in 25 words or less, state your position and your experience and be done with it.

(1) some training should be done in racing shoes

(2) the research is sparse

(3) if it ain't broke, don't fix it

(4) I use lightweight trainers and flats

That's my position/experience in 25 words. Have a good day. And yes, I'm done with this thread.

I've been reading about the minimalist approach for more than 3 months now, and am still not very convinced...

I am very light, small framed male runner with decent PRs; I am a mid-to forfoot striker, rather inefficient (bouncy stride) and I am used to run in flats during my harder workouts (say 15-25miles a week) or in lightweight trainers. rest of it is in regular neutral trainers. At my mileage (80+miles a week), I am very hesistant to introduce any more running in flats, however, I am on the verge of giving it a try...

If I do my whole training run- including wu and wd- in flats (10-12miles total for tempo day), my legs feel tired the next day, but if I do it on soft surface, I am fine. Should I just soldier it out and try to get used to running on pavement in flats, or just use them for track and trail workouts?

My current goal is to PR in the 'thon in April.

Don't change too much until after April. It's good that you are putting in some time in your racing shoes, but to make a full switch at your volume right now would likely give you lots of trouble and you don't want to make any significant changes until after your goal race.

That said, add in barefoot jogging 10-15min at a time, 2-3 times per week, and try 30min jogs in your flats. It will help as much as possible to set you up both to run well in your race and make a transition afterwards.

Four months into a switch from heel striking with Kayano,Air Stasis and Grid Omnis to midfoot running using NB900, 03 Tiger paw and Waffle racer III. My experience has been very positive. Hope to be in the hstreet or the equivalent this summer. Anterior ankle tendon issues have cleared up nicely. Running is just more enjoyable now that I've made the changes in form and footwear. I'm not a high mileage guy but I have been running for over 25 years.

Prior to the switch I couldn't walk around the house barefoot without immediately wanting some supportive footwear. Now I am comfortable unshod in the house. My feet don't hurt when I wake up. Its great to be running in shoes that I couldn't even look at two years ago. When I started this process I figured it would take a year or more to see if it was effective. So far so good. With a slow build up I hope to knock off some masters prs this fall.

Its good thing that serious runners are questioning the business people about the effectiveness of the products they are selling.

How many miles a week are you currently running in flats? and which are they? What are your other training shoes? Slowly allowing your body to adjust is the smartest thing one can do when training hard. If you've read some of my other post I went straight from 15miles a week in flats to 70miles a week. Without having any other info on your running background I can only say mix in the flats slowly in your training. The shoes you wear all day should be one that has a 1 inch heel or less. This helps get your feet prepared for running in lower profile shoes. Puma H streets are an awesome casual shoe as well as one of the most minimal shoes you can buy.

Trackhead,

For those of us who are just starting with the transition, coming of injury, or just not running very much mileage right now how should we go about getting our barefoot jogs in?

Using myself as an example (sorry), Right now I am only running about 2- 3 miles every day in flats / NB900. I was thinking that instead of having to totally give up a day to do my barefoot running that it would be better to just start with half a mile or about 5 minutes of barefoot running about 2 times per week and see how things go.

Also if you got a nagging muscle injury, like PF, achilles tendonitis, or whatever else is giving you a little trouble is barefoot running still a good idea or should one wait until everything is feeling healthy?

Thanks for your help,

GS

I should add that I am going to have to do this on the indoor track at my school because its way to freaking cold outside for barefoot running. At 10 degree temps the past week the ground is frozen anyway.

That's fine. Anyway you want to work it in, so long as it's not too much too soon.

As far as what's good to do when injured, I've heard of people either waiting until they had it under control, and I've also heard of people going into the b arefoot work while injured and it accelerating their progress.

I would experiment with it very lightly, build upwards, and if you have any problems then back off. Just take it one step at a time.

PLEASE...PLEASE don't stop posting, how in the world would the rest of letsrun.com posters ever get good shoe advice!!!

...you met your match. i hope your shoe advice isn't as poor as your debating temperment. you're not really operating much different than a snake oil salesman whether you know it or not.