Hicham El Guerrouj is oficially clean!!! His frozen urine samples can't be retested anymore!!!

I don't have experience of doping practice. I have experience of what an athlete can do WITHOUT doping practice. For that reason, I'm not surprised an athlete with the talent, but especially the professionalism, of EG (comparable only with the professionalism of Paula Radcliffe, and by far very different from the interpretation of Kenyan runners) can run 3'26" clean, maintaining continuity for almost 10 years.

If we think that Fermin Cacho ran 3'28" high, and was a normal athlete for 3'32", I don't see any reason because EG couldn't run his times clean.

We had some Kenyan with only normal talent, and tough training for no longer than 3 months in one year, and fot two years only, abel running completely clean around 3'30", for example Timothy Kiptanui and Robert Rono.

If Asbel Kiprop could have the same professionality of EG, the WR could go under 3'24" from somebody completely clean.

And about Albuquerque, your phrase is right : certainly EG didn't need to go to Albuquerque to dope, since also in Maroc at the time EPO was freely available....

So, for what reason people look at the fact EG was in Albuquerque AFTER the two Olympic Golds, as a proof that he was doped ?

you are aware of the widespread use of and performance enhancement of blood transfusions are you not renato?

from your time coaching in italy in the 80s?

and then epo in cycling,skiing and distance running took performance enhancement to a whole new level

that's 40 years of blood doping history and championship winners renato...you must already know all this??

Renato, I will say it point blank:

You are a fuccking moron.

You're the Italian equivalent of new-ager's in the USA. You get hold of ideas that you're not smart enough, or not rigorous enough, or both, to understand, then you use them to build your laughable world view.

It's a good thing for you, and all other snake-oil salesmen, that most people in the world are colossally ignorant and uninformed, they are easy to confuse, convince, and entertain.

You realize that the posters on this board who you disparage as nobodies have completely exposed you for the fool that you are, right?

Not only have you met your match here, you have been, and continue to be, destroyed. Reading your posts has become like watching a small child who tells lie after lie, trying to cover up the initial lie that he told. The lies and stupidity become increasingly laughable.

You have become so desperate that you grasp at any and all straws that you think are available--the only problem is that you're not even smart enough to know that what you are doing is working against you, not for you.

If you weren't such a pompous self-deluded fool, it would be embarrassing to watch, nobody normal would want to see a normal person self-destruct like you are doing--but the point is that you ARE a pompous self-deluded fool, and you haven't even earned a free pass by being an old man yet.

Whoever Carlo is hit the nail on the head, it is like you are pissing into the wind. Everything you try to put out there in your own support ends up as egg on your face.

You really don't realize how stupid you sound, do you?

It's exactly because I know what happened in Italy that I don't believe in blood doping.

In the years 1978-1985 the self transfusion was legal, and in Italy the Olympic Committee (CONI) gave officially the task to prof. Conconi to support with this system many athletes of endurance (also swimmers).

Every athlete could chose to follow, or not, the "advices" of Conconi.

Some athlete, like Alberto Cova (WCh 1983 and Olympic Champion 1984 in 10000m), Salvatore Antibo, the Selvaggio twins and Fontanella followed his system. Some other, as Francesco Panetta, Stefano Mei and Gelindo Bordin, refused.

During the era of self-transfusion, Antibo ran 27'39". When he stopped (in 1985) this practice, became the best European, running 27'16" and 13'05". Panetta won WCh 1987 (steeple) after the silver medal (10000m). Bordin won Olympics in Marathon.

In 1984, Italian swimming had one athlete for gold medal, Franceschi in 200m medley. He followed the Conconi system, and NEVER was able to approach again the same peformances.

In the self transfusion, there were personal parameters to know for understanding IF was possible to have advantages in the performance, or to have disadvantages riskig to finish the career.

If I have to give a percentage, during those years of "legal" practice, among the athletes who tried to use this manipulation, I say that no more than 40% had really advantages in their performances, and about 30% never were able to go back at the same level they had before the practice.

The period with the most wide use of EPO in athletics is probably between 1994 and 2001. During that period, the only parameter investigated was the level of Hct : if higher than 50, the atlete had to be suspended for 15 days, officially for "not risking his health".

From 2001, was possible to detect directly EPO in the urines, but still was possible to skip some test. Exactly for that reason, IAAF changed the rules, requiring, in case of some record, to have both the tests (blood and urine) for the homologation. Everybody remember the case of Brahim Boulami, positive after bettering the WR of steeple in 2002.

From that year, the most part of athletes (also of top level) quitted to use EPO (who used), but the general level of performances in 5000 and 10000m continued to grow.

This because the organisation of the race changed : when Bekele was in a race, normally he had to run fast, and every year tried to beat the WR of 5000 / 10000m one or two times. If you look at the lists of 10000m, you can see the best performances are all in races won by Bekele or Gebrselassie, because there was a pace very fast and even, and the best (but normal) athletes could take advantage from this situation.

I can't be sure about some WR : I can have my idea, but I can't know the particulars of training and management of those athletes (Morceli, El Guerrouj, Komen, Szabo).

But I'm sure about other WR : the steeple of Shaheen, the Marathon of Wilson Kipsang, the 800m of Rudisha (and before of Wilson Kipketer), the HM of Mary Keitany, for example.

This is, for me, the demonstration that is possible running at the top without any help, not only illegal, but also legal (Shaheen and Mary Keitany never took one supplement, also legal, for example).

And that's the reason because I continue to sustain a position that can make me appear as a fool, to some poster having in his mind the only idea of doping.

But of course I don't care about some stupid extremist only able to insult without saying anything true (also because doesn't know anything). How my grandmother teached me when I was 10 years old, "we need to take words from where they come", and, if come from an idiot "Minus Quam", can't disturb for the simple reason that don't exist.

To me, everything Canova has said here sounds reasonable and believable. On the other hand, it's you who seems to be a "fuc.king moron".

RENATO...can i kindly direct you to the WADA website

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/q-and-a/blood-doping/

What is blood doping?

"Blood doping is the misuse of certain techniques and/or substances to increase one’s red blood cell mass, which allows the body to transport more oxygen to muscles and therefore increase stamina and performance"

i hope this helps you..

Renato Canova wrote:

So, I don't say 50% of Young american WANT to dope. I say, if they are tested, THEY ARE POSITIVE, because a high percentage of supplements are not regular,

The generalization you did say is:

"What I know is that in America more than 50% of Young people (including who is not an athlete are DOPED, because this is your stupid culture"

and you haven't provided a link/source for it, yet you berate others for generalizations and lack of proof.

Another case of psychological projection.

Brian Red Mamba Scalabrine wrote:I repeat. Shawn Crawford tested positive and then he said "I was retired since the Olympic trials".

Oh, sure, Shawn! Whatever!

Why he was taking PED's, IF he was retired?

nonsense

do some research

shawn got suspended for missing out-of competition tests

something which is no surprise whatsover since he had retired after trials & didn't concern himself with filling in wherabouts form

do you seriously think a 20.48 guy was doping at the trials, when at his magnificent peak which i made the trip to athens in '04 to specifically watch him v kenteris ( he got banned ) & saw a 19.6-low/mid shape, when 19.6-low/mid was a huge deal ???

Renato Canova wrote:

So, for what reason people look at the fact EG was in Albuquerque AFTER the two Olympic Golds, as a proof that he was doped ?

No, not as proof, but suspicion. As the thread title says "Hicham El Guerrouj is oficially clean!!!".

yes it is

he only ran a 2k once in his life & only coupla 3ks at his peak - one his 7'23 & an atrociously paced 7'30 in '03 when shouda been looking for

7'20/7'21

in an off-peak year but still good for 3'28 & likely 12'45 in his 12'50pb if he hadn't got terrified of cherono with him & slowed 4th to a crawl

i see you are too dumb to read

he trained on a closed track & had 'roccan champs/record holders training with him - at least the 400 one according to 1 account

he coud run all the 800 preps or tts he wanted to with that company

read canova on this thread

this is utter nonsense

mo's best distance is almost certainly the 3k & off his 3'28 he coud run

7'18+

how many 3ks did mo run last 3y ???

noise ???

it's account of 1 'roccan poster who heard it 2nd hand

there is no "noise" about it

it's a low key account

nonsense

baala ran 1'43.1 off 3'32 training at the time & that was 1st serious 800 of career in last race of year

if he coud run 1'43.1 off not great 1500 ability, hicham wouda demolished that

the interview was off the cuff & he also talked drivel of 49/50 ability

does anyone in their right mind believe hicham had 49/50 ability on 3'26wr day ???

he's clearly saving it for his book

nonsense

mo was in 7'18 shape this year & probably 7'18/7'20 shape past 3y

how many 3ks has he run outdoors ???

utter & total drivel

he ran the last 800 in athens in 1'46

how on earth coud he run his 800pb with 700m of running in brutal heat in his legs ???

drivel

bernie never ran a golden league 800 in '01 or '04

bernie was very much noah like in his ability

noah only is thought faster speed than hicham/bernie because he did run a 800 3 times in his coupla peak years, but none in '99, his peak year

& took coupla goes at 1k, where he ended up with wr after a 3'29.1 win less than 48 hours before & with suicidal opener of 49.8+ in his wr

whatever noah coud potentially do in '99 for 800/1k, the bernie of '01 & possibly '04 couda virtually matched or beaten & hicham woudn't have been far behind

get a clue

Hardloper wrote:He WAS the favorite, once you take out Kiprop, Kiplagat, Chepseba, and Nick Willis, who all were either hurt or had terrible races in the final. As a result, spots 1-6 were all relative unknowns, and predictably the only 3:30 / 1:43 man left dominated it. The field was very weak compared to a field to a field like 2007 where there were several 3:2x guys with great speed. The splits were completely unremarkable when compared to splits like El Guerrouj ran - 1:51 final 800 vs. 1:46 for El G, lagat, and Silva. Leo matched the final lap split

drivel

maloofi's

splits were "completely unremarkable" when you are comparing to hicham/bernie who were in likely at worst 3'27 shape at games having run that in zurich just before games & personally, i think bernie was in 3'26 shape in zurich but past his peak for games - the zurich race was no way the fastest pace for a circuit race by any means

that means maloofi was in 3'27 shape at worst in london

maloofi only made one real effort in that race - the kick for ~ 100m & destroyed the field & coasted in

this shows how much of a quantum level he was above them

SIMPLES hicham doped to gills !!!

not even up for debate .

and the fact that you renato could even say he could be

clean tells alot ,

as for the amount you talk about doping says

one thing to me ,the exact opposite .

kipketer and rudisha both dirty as hell .

and when did a 50 per cent cut off apply to athletics

certainly didnt till blood pasport came in .

that is how compliant your belovid iaaf are in whole mess .

as for shorter distance records must be joking me ,

will not be broken for any time soon .

bekele was loaded up on micera !!!!!

just like ramzi was from 2005 onwards ,with worlds win.

original epoian was kipeter ..

why was there no retrospective tests of cera beyond olympics 2008 in athletics .

and athletes in know knew had a test for .,

sorry managers of athletes .

winter 2006 retro testing for cera is not athletics

nor was ramzi in know obviously .

dont think thrown to wolves ,just didnt know of test .

hicham has a simple free pass when comes to doping

could go after him but dont .

similarly with so many other darlings of the iaaf .

mako wrote:

To me, everything Canova has said here sounds reasonable and believable. On the other hand, it's you who seems to be a "fuc.king moron".

Point blank: That is because you are a stupid sucker, the very kind of person on which Renato relies for his continued prosperity.

Enjoy the ride he's taking you on, because it comes at a heavy price: the direct expense of honor, integrity, and honesty.

ventolin^3 wrote:

Hardloper wrote:He WAS the favorite, once you take out Kiprop, Kiplagat, Chepseba, and Nick Willis, who all were either hurt or had terrible races in the final. As a result, spots 1-6 were all relative unknowns, and predictably the only 3:30 / 1:43 man left dominated it. The field was very weak compared to a field to a field like 2007 where there were several 3:2x guys with great speed. The splits were completely unremarkable when compared to splits like El Guerrouj ran - 1:51 final 800 vs. 1:46 for El G, lagat, and Silva. Leo matched the final lap split

that means maloofi was in 3'27 shape at worst in london

maloofi only made one real effort in that race - the kick for ~ 100m & destroyed the field & coasted in

this shows how much of a quantum level he was above them

More nonsense. Hardloper is correct in his analysis of the race.

There was nothing about Makhloufi's closing splits that suggests were particularly remarkable and certainly not indicative of a 3:27.

You have no proof at all that he was 'coasting' the last 100m. It looked like someone who had mede his effort and was no longer able to maintain the same pace in the last 100.

His last 800 was 1:50.3 in a 3:34. Not as good as EL G's 1:46.9 in a 3:34 final or Coe's 1:49.8 in a 3:32 final.

His last lap was 52.8, which again doesn't compare to say Morceli's 50.6 last 400 in a 3:34.2 1993 WC final, or his 51.6 in a 3:32.8 1991 final.

His last 300m was 39.3, slower than Coe's 39.2 in LA off a faster pace.

His last 200 was 26.9, and 100m was 14.0. Both inferior to most championship finals in recent years. If all those splits mean 3:27 to you, then all I can say is that there have been many other guys in the past capable of 3:26 or faster.

The most impressive split for Mak in London was the 100m stretch from 300 out in 12.4, the same time that Morceli ran in his 3:34 WC win in 93. But Morceli's 100m stretch prior to that one had been 12.8, whereas Mak's had been only 13.5. Morceli then went on to run the next 100m in 12.4 as well, while Mak slowed to 12.9.

So, even the best part of Mak's race does not compare to a known 3:27 athlete, Morceli. Makhloufi was in 3:30 shape in London, which was all that was required to win a race in which no one else on the day looked in anything better than 3:32 shape.

He's clean and so is the inside of my rectum.

So, you suppose EG, IN ANY CASE, was doped because he was in Albuquerque. You supposed he, IN ANY CASE, was not retired also if never competed again.

I think you are really naive. (QUOTE)

Renato, you still haven't explained why Albuquerque WAS so popular with athletes....but now not a single elite trains there.

Could the attraction of Albuquerque have been a certain Russian marathoner/doctor?????

Renato, please answer THIS question.

More nonsense.

None of this post matters because Morceli and Coe were both doped, just like Makhloufi is.

PASS GO AND COLLECT YOUR FREE DOPING PASS .

WARINER AND BEKELE WERE THE TWO THAT BENEFITED THE MOST

FROM MICERA .WAY BACK INN 2002 .

WAY BEFORE OTHERS COULD GET THERE HANDS ON IT .

OBVIOUSLY RAMZI ,BUT KNOW HOW THAT ENDED !!!

WINDOW CLOSED AS FAST AS OPENED FOR MOST OTHERS .