Renato Canova - Arthur Lydiard Coaches Roundtable

Lakeside Stadium - Site License

Qantas Melbourne Track Classic - 2/03/2012 to 3/03/2012

IAAF World Challenge

Lakeside Stadium, Melbourne

Event 21 1500 metres Open Men

=======================================================================

World Record: W 3:26.00 14/07/1998 Hicham El Guerrouj, MAR

All Comers: C 3:31.25 2001 Hichan El Guerrouj, MAR

Australian: N 3:31.06 2010 Ryan Gregson, NSW

Meet Record: M 3:32.55 2000 William Chirchir, KEN

Name Year Team Finals Points

=======================================================================

Finals

1 Ryan Gregson 90 Aus 3:38.51

2 David Torrence 85 Usa 3:39.32

3 Nicholas Willis 83 Nzl 3:39.77

4 Jeff Riseley 86 Aus 3:40.50

5 Asbel Kiprop 89 Ken 3:42.52

6 Brenton Rowe 87 Aut 3:42.68

7 Ryan Foster 88 Aus 3:45.89

8 Hamish Carson 88 Nzl 3:45.95

9 Mark Blicavs 91 Aus 3:46.11

10 Josh Wright 91 Aus 3:46.46

11 Paul Robinson 91 Irl 3:48.97

12 Brett Robinson 91 Aus 3:49.92

13 Jordan Williamsz 92 Aus 3:58.60

-- Andrew Rotich 87 Ken DNF

fair enough, but with renato you go soley by time. not so with the others.

cram actually fizzled out quite badly.

snell getting beaten by a teenager may have hastened his decision.

elliott showed no signs - didn't get the chance to, but believe he did run a 2.08 800 towards the end

walker never ran a quicker 1500 after his '74 run

morcelli's last couple of years were a little embarrassing

it isn't as clear-cut as you have stated though - a lot of them were at their best when young.

maybe kenyans run out of steam earlier because the base has been there so long (since schooldays) - how long can a runner last , you should be comparing renato's kenyans with other kenyans.

only kipchoge has lasted - tergat too i suppose, and ngugyi, kipketer for a while. keino to a degree

what have the romans ever done for us?

you think about it wrote:

elliott showed no signs - didn't get the chance to, but believe he did run a 2.08 800 towards the end

Full story here - retired, overweight, turned out in an inter-college (i.e. inter-hall-of-accommodation) race for a laugh...

you think about it wrote:

MOST RUNNERS DON'T LAST LONG. HERE IS MY POST FROM LYDIARD IMITATIONS. APPLY YOUR OWN HARD STANDARDS TO OTHER ATHLETES TOO

I'm aware of their careers, but it is very interesting to see them in a list. Yes, this gives even more credence to the coaching and training of Renato Canova. You could add Halberg to the list, peaked in 1960 and never again came close, in fact almost a minute slower 4 years later.

Elliott always impressed me as being strong mentally, and he was definitely a strong racer of course. However in retrospect, and from my less fervent more realistic view through the years, he was really weak mentally. Like Ryun, he got his strength from his coach, Percy Cerutty (also as a child growing up with strong healthy parents), but was not able to handle the running life on his own. Most of all he was not able to take care of myself physically, had poor habits, and that's why he soon fell apart. But then, that's what he WANTED to do.

Name some with a classic lineal improvementryun peaked at 19snell ran fastest at 23elliott -22walker - 3.32 at 22 and 23, then maintained (although had coe and overt to chase)coe - fastest 800 at 23ovett - maintaintedcram - peaked at 25 - something funny going on towards the endvasalla - age??cruz - peaked at 21bayi - age - young i thinkmorcelli - superstar fell away badly in the final yearsbile - had two god years onlybekele , geb, komen, all slowed significantly, while bekele and get were still the best they were nowhere near their old timesas renato said - elg peaked then maintainedthrow in JRs halberg

gypsy wrote:

The difference is age 23 or earlier versus ages 26 or later. Those extra 3 years doubles the life span of the athletes improvement. Maintenance of the same or similar standard at the same event for years after that is further evidence of a pretty correct program underneath.

Coe, fastest 1500 near 30, 1:43 near 33. Some people like to pick certainsnippets and say it tells a whole story.

Not A Cultist wrote:

Coe, fastest 1500 near 30, 1:43 near 33.

Isn't 1:43 slower than 1:41?

Frankly, I don't understand which logic there is about the fact to peak in the first event of the career after 3 years. When I coach an athlete, I try to see WHERE he can have the best international chances, AND NORMALLY THEY ARE NOT IN THEIR FIRST EVENT. I think everybody having a brain prefers to be n. 5 in the World in one longer event rather than n. 15 in a shorter distance, and when I find in an athlete more attitude for a longer distance, I MOVE IMMEDIATELY IN THAT DIRECTION. This doesn't mean the training doesn't include workouts looking at speed, but normally the athlete doesn't compete anymore in short events when he's in his best shape.

And also to look at the PB only as sign of peaking is completely wrong. If we have the goal to win some big Championship (Olympic or WCh), for example, we don't try during the same season to better the time : may be can happen, or may be not, this is not important.

For example, the best Shaheen was in 2006 but his WR was in 2004, and we can find a lot of athletes in that situation.

I have an example for this year : Caleb Ndiku. He's still very young (20 years), is the World Junior Champion of 1500m in 2010, but personally I think he can have more chances in 5000m, so we look at 5000 for this year. This doesn't mean he doesn't work for 1500, but, where he is in his top shape, probably he will run 5000 instead 1500.

The idea that for going to a longer distance an athlete needs to wait to be in his declining phase, looking at the normal event, is a total stupidity. If you want to reach your best, IN ANY EVENT, you need to approach the event when you have the best answer from your body, and you need to last in the longer event in order to have time for improving under mental, tactic and physiological point of view.

With the mentality of Gypsy, everybody running marathon is an athlete ESCAPING from a short event because his training is wrong. He doesn't understand today there is no more room for being professional in 5000 and 10000m on track, compared with marathon. A top track athlete (in top 10 in the World in 5000m, for example), with a full season cant earn as a specialist in marathon able running in 2:10, that means n. 150 in the seasonal list.

Technically speaking, there are athletes talented for long distances, and other that never can change their event. Together with my friend Gianni Ghidini, coach of Wilfred Bungei, we never had the idea to move Wilfred to longer distances : he won a medal in WJCh in 1998 in 800m, and won Olympic in 2008, BECAUSE HE WAS A SPECIALIST OF 800m ONLY.

But athletes like Vaatainen (1'48" in 800) and Garderud (1'47") moved very young to longer events, becoming European Champions in 10000m and Olympic Champion / WR holder in steeple : did this happen because they had a wrong training in their first event ?

I don't have anything to add now but I know that for every post dismissive of Renato, there are 50 people out there who appreciate his willingness to post here and put up with idiotic criticisms. So thank you, Renato, on behalf of the great majority of posters!

elton wrote:

I don't have anything to add now but I know that for every post dismissive of Renato, there are 50 people out there who appreciate his willingness to post here and put up with idiotic criticisms. So thank you, Renato, on behalf of the great majority of posters!

Certain people in this world are FAILURES and the only way they can feel good about themselves is to knock those who have succeeded, using lies, exaggerations, and views through straws. Are you reading this, gypsy/Winter?

I think that the glaring questions (elephants in the room) are these:

Is coach Canovas training suitable for the common runner? I'm talking people training for a marathon outside the 2hr 10min range (or probably even much faster!)?

If the common runner (reading this forum) embraces the aspects of training, where Canova says he is "VERY FAR from Lydiard", will they end up getting injured/burning out?

Are Lydiards principles at the base of Canovas training where he then proceeds to sprinkle his own magic frosting, but the end result is a cake which only the Kenyans can eat and he has to be there to supervise they are eating it correctly?

I think Canova is great to be able to push the Kenyans to their limit, but at the end of the day you have the common runner thinking that maybe he can follow this type of training successfully and keep progressing.

So coach, what say you? Is this for the common western runner?

tks!

A roundtable would never become a decent runner - even with Arthur Lydiard as its coach. What a silly idea

Apostrophe Crimes wrote:

A roundtable would never become a decent runner - even with Arthur Lydiard as its coach. What a silly idea

:D

The Common Man wrote:

Is coach Canovas training suitable for the common runner? I'm talking people training for a marathon outside the 2hr 10min range (or probably even much faster!)?

If the common runner (reading this forum) embraces the aspects of training, where Canova says he is "VERY FAR from Lydiard", will they end up getting injured/burning out?

The principles are entirely different, and can apply to anyone. I apply the principles to myself, and share them with my friends. Canova does not say the principles don't apply to everyone, but that everyone is not a world class runner and therefore can't train the same way. That is very simple to understand, yes?

Are Lydiards principles at the base

No, you should read Renato's post comparing some of the principles, and you should see they are entirely different.

Posted 2/28/2012 4:47PM

For example, a long time friend of mine, and long a Lydiard advocate, has a hard time getting it out of his head that he has to run his "best aerobic pace" every day. He absolutely does not understand regeneration and recovery.

Anyway, Renato summarized the differences and my words are not his. You should read his summary of these, and this might take time for you, being a long term Lydiard advocate.

Thanks for the reply JR but I'd rather hear it from the horses mouth.

I know nothing about you, you are just another person hiding behind an alias...much like myself I suppose.

RE: Are Lydiards priciples at the base?

His first point (the base) a was "a) Aerobic training is the most important part of the preparation. Without a wide aerobic base, in my opinion it's not possible to reach the top personal level. In this I have the same idea of Lydiard."

I'm not sure if I'm reading this statement wrong but he says it's the most important part of the preparations and that he had the same idea as Lydiard. Well I suppose it couldn't be that he had the same idea as Lydiard because Lydiard was before Canova so I suppose he just borrowed Lydiards idea.

It bring me back thinking that it's Lydiard at the base of it with Canovas magic frosting on top and the end result can only be eaten by Kenyans. It doesn't seem feasible to me that C's training will help the common western runner to compete competitively and long term as we don't share anything in common with the Kenyans physiology, i.e. well conditioned walking broomsticks made out of tendons! :)

Sorry to sound harsh but your friend sounds like he is just not very well clued in from what you are saying about him. Even if you were to convince him, I don't think he could embrace Canovas methods as there are very few officially published documents by C unlike Lydiard and Co., who wrote about his methods in detail, and I presume your friend would have access to these but is still stuck in his mindset regardless of reading them.

If he cant make sense of Lydiard what hope would he have of making sense of C's methods which are not well documented by him and also are not targeted at the average runner from what I can tell so far (unless C says otherwise).

I hope your training is going well JR, you sound like a very competitive runner!

tks!

So it's okay for you to make up stuff, but not okay for anyone else to express real ideas -- you are indeed a Lydiard person!

I see very clearly that Renato Canova's ideas are completely different from Lydiard. Lydiard traveled to Africa with Halberg long ago, and their attempts at training them were disastrous. You are stuck, in that you think everything came from Lydiard, when in fact he did not invent anything.

Because that's all you see, but your thinking is wrong. Nothing exists for you, except what came from the source of all knowledge, for you, which is Lydiard.

Actually my friend was example. I was talking about you.

That's a good point. Maybe you don't truly understand what Lydiard's all about.

Thanks for your good wishes. I hope your training is going well too.

Common Man;

Of course western runners can apply Canova principles to ther running. He is too generous with his comments and schedules that it would be absurd if he wasn't posting and responding so that we can learn and take what we want from it.

Thus the percentages and references to 3k pace, 5k pace etc as opposed to only posting what his guys do exactly.

What I take from it overall is that he is showing us that his guys work harder and in particular, run proportionately faster than we have done traditionally, and he is inviting us to raise our game.

I can hear what your saying but I would really like to hear it from C himself just for the record because all his success seems to be with the top 1%~ and I'm not convinced the common man can take such training in the long term as they are nowhere near as conditioned as the athletes he works with.

What I will say is that the common man needs to keep working on his base, lots of steady Aerobic running in preparation for the more specific work later on in their periodisation (whatever formula they may choose - L or C) and if C is an advocate of this as the most important part of his method (like Lydiard was) then this is a very good thing for the common man IMO.

The quick fix has been creeping in for too long now and should be banished. L and C are by no means a quick fix I'm sure you will agree.

I just worry that this type of training at the tail end of the periodisation was invented for the top 1% and to propagate this to the common man may do them more harm than good. C's methods have not been proven to work for the common man over a long period of time so I'm sure you can understand my concerns?

tks!

I'm not sure what you think I'm making up JR. I just quoted C's post you directed me to where he says that the most important part of his training is the same as Lydiard's. The rest of my post was just my opinion, I don't tend to deal in absolutes, I am very open to others opinions, including yours JR, you crazy son of a gun! :)

Nothing you said though shows whether C's methods will work safely for the common runner. Are you and your friend apart of the common runners like me or are you in the top 1%?

How long have you been using C's methods and what type of improvements are you and your friends seeing? It must be very successful as you come across as being very passionate!

tks!