Silas Kiplagat-Mystery Man

Renato;

What did you mean by the statement below.Does that mean Asbel Kiprop is harming his longterm progression ito the longer distances?

b) ANAEROBIC ATTITUDE, combined with MUSCULAR STRENGTH, like the athletes tall and more heavy. Of course, there is some specialist tall and slim, that probably made some mistake in his training (Cornelius Chirchir and also Asbel Kiprop now), not trying to increase their Aerobic Power (specifically their best attitude, for example don't forget Asbel won in 2007 the WICh of Cross, 8 km) but looking too much for speed.

Kenyans are not the toughest and they are not the weakest either. They are the most persistent individuals i know. When i started running 15 years ago, i did it bc my friends were running and going places, they had money and they had nice houses etc. I knew i was not the most talented guy around, i did it in order to get a scholarship and get away from home. I did not know it was going to take me 8 years of training, racing, traveling, being broke away from home. I manage to hang in there despite the difficulties and hardships. How many people do you know who train day in and day out without a job, shun by family members, no training shoes, no clothes sometimes no food and no end insite but keep doing it? The Kenyans. With my average talent, i manage to get a scholarship went to college, run well and got my fees paid for. My pesistance is minute compared to alot of other Kenyans who have to train for 15 years before seeing the fruits of their work. A friend of mine who trained for 10 years without breaking out finally was able to, went to Italy and run a 2.08 marathon. These is the guy who i run with every morning marching stride by stride, mile per mile and he manage to hang in there to run 2.08 marathon. This is persistence. This is the story of hundreds of Kenyans. People can run good times if they stick to it. I know alot of Kenyans who started training after high just to get a scholarship. Many of these guys were laughed at bc they luck talent, coordination and even the physical structure of a typical kenyan runner. These guys were able to persist, got their schoolarship and become the best in American schools. If average, no talent kenyans can do what about the talented ones.

Yes, you are right. The epo testing is weak and has been all the time. Micro doses can be used still. You just take

micro dose when you are going to sleep. Sleep 8 hours and

in the morning you are clean. I am not saying africans are doing it, but certainly somebody is doing it.

In blood profiling it is possible to find indirect

markers(haematocrit,haemaglobin,reticulocyte count)

as a sufficient prove of blood doping. They started to test

the method at 2006. IAAF boss Arne Ljunqvist said that in a press conference. It is now a method to target correctly

the epo test itself to athletes who have abnormal

blood profile.

'It is DAMN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to get caught with EPO. You have to be a fool or extremely unlucky'

We have come full circle now. First the times have all dived since the EPO test comes out.

Now the test doesn't work! What a crock!

Firstly many have failed the tests check the IAAF list and then the cyclists one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_sport

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Ah Deano finally someone knowledgeable who can have an intelligent discussion:

It's in the 1500m and longer where the improvements had been staggering since the mid 90's.

But think about this 13:00 run without a pacemaker nearly 30 years ago by an athlete not born or extensively at altitude. 30 years on is 23 seconds impossible without drugs. Or even the 1500m with 3.5 seconds improvement

I would look more at the pattern of elite proven drug cheats and the altitude they were born at:

Brahim Boulami Safi Sea Level

Rashid Ramzi Safi Sea Level

Mohammed Mourhit Khouribga 786m (2500ft)not high enough!

Ali Saïdi-Sief Constantine 501m

Adil Kaouch Can't find

I could go on!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics

Note these are elite athletes. OF course you can find a few from East Africa but nowhere near their standard

Hi!

Firstly, I don't believe everything Czech guy has to say (e.g about heights and Kenyans not being able to go under 3:32 without EPO), but I do think some of his analysis has relevance.

Secondly, I don't think as high a % of Kenyans or Ethiopians are or have been taking EPO compared to other nations, mainly due to the point you made about them having a natural advantage, being born at high altitude. However, I think it highly unlikely than NO athletes from these countries (Kenya & Ethiopia) have ever taken EPO.

In addition, though not an expert, I'm not sure about your claim that athletes born at altitude "don't need EPO". Surely if their less naturally gifted peers were taking it in an effort to close the gap, then the Africans would re-extend that gap by taking it themselves? In other words, if a naturally talented Kenyan of 3:32 ability at 1500m were to take EPO, wouldn't his time likely still improve, perhaps to 3:29? I'm not certain myself. Perhaps you or someone else knows whether or not an altitude born athletes would still not improve with it?

Thirdly, you list several known cheats not born at altitude (mostly Moroccan I think), who would seem to be obvious candidates for improved times in an effort to create parity with those born at altitude.

But, what about El Geurrouj? Not only is he Moroccan, but wasn't (as fas as I know) born at altitude either. How was he able to be quite a bit faster than those Kenyans he competed against that were from altitude?

I personally don't have a specific issue against Kenyan athletes, recognising them to be the strongest athletic nation for middle and long distance running. But I do have strong suspicions concerning many of the top athletes competing in the decade from '95 - '05, regardless of whether they were Moroccan, Kenyan, French, Spanish, etc. There were performances during that period which were almost unbelievable compared to what went before and what has happened since. Had the trend in WR performance continued throughout the last decade, I might be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt, but far from it, they have regressed quite markedly. A 3:29 is now the world's leading performance again, while 10 - 15 years ago it would be quite run of the mill. And it's not just the end time that cause me alarm, but the way in which races are finished. When Kiplagat recently ran 3:29 with fairly economic pacing, he ran the last lap in about 54.5 and was slowing down in the last 100m. But during the EPO period we had guys running 53 last laps in 3:26 races, 52 sec last laps in 3:29s, sub 13:00 min 5000m at the end of 27 min 10ks! Surely with WR runs the athlete shouldn't be getting faster at the end of the race?

Of course all this is only my opinion and I respect your views to the contrary. At least I can have an intelligent and polite discussion with you, unlike Ventolin.

Hope you've been enjoying the Europeans? What do you say Rimmer's chances are in the 800 tomorrow? I have a feeling he's going to be outkicked by one of the Spaniards!

So, finally an independent confirmation of my points? Is there still anybody, who believes that Kenyans are "natural born" middle distance runners? We were simply brainwashed to believe so, and nobody bothered to look at how distance runners actually look like. The only possible advantage they have over Europeans are their longer legs (which explains, why European MD runners are ca. 3 cm taller than Kenyans to compensate shorter stride). And as for the advatage of training in high altitude, it can improve buffer capacity (the ability to neutralize lactic acid). But a European can achieve the same, of course, if he trains in the same enviroment before race.

And you should take into consideration that many of those small African 1500 m runners may have run fast only due to EPO use.

To sum it up, middle distances without EPO use are back on the level that we saw 25 years ago and Africans "dominate" only because top Europeans don't compete at all. Oh, yes, the performances of Kenyans may look "great". But they look so only because the overall performance level hasn't really improved at all. To put it into a more realistic angle, in 1985 nobody would think that times like 1:46 or 3:36 are worthy of any special attention.

no moron

those stats show fast kenyan 800 guys are averaging 180cm & 1500 ones slightly shorter at 177cm

those appear anecdotally in keeping with what you woud expect in general with any elite 800 & 1500 guys - 800 guys are bigger than 1500 guys because the 800 requires more basic speed ( more "sprint" speed ) & therefore the guys will have more of a "sprinters" build - bigger & stronger

none of this appears kenyan specific, but general specific to ALL nationalities

of course canova didn't do the 2 standard deviations for each value for a range nor do the list of a comparable number of elite non-kenyan 800 or 1500 guys

now idiot, if you want to do some "proper" research - do the list for non-kenyans & provide 2 standard deviation range for all categories

moron

how f***ing dumb are you ???

48% of top 800ers & 42% of top 1500ers says so

can't you grasp even just kindergarden statistics ???

no, moron

see canova's stats

kenyans in keeping with just as we expect

drivel

provide the inside leg measurements for all those kenyans & comparable elite non-kenyans & show us a 3cm difference

provide FACTS not drivel

eh ???

expand on the biochemistry of this & provide some peer-linked research papers

moron

where are your height stats for non-kenyan 1500 guys ???

idiot

times like 1'41.51 or 3'29.27 back in '85 wouda been the wr

in fact, if they had been run in '85, the 800 time wouda been wr for 12y & the 1500 for 7y

Joe N. Kipkemboi wrote:

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It is a very dangerous, crazy individual, who masturbates during posting on various internet forums. Last time we saw him he carried his favourite book "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda - Athletic theory vs. praxis".

Please, if you incidentally saw him, don't try to catch him and call our phone +005456871231221322.

Thank you

Joe Nut Kipkemboi, director of the State Mental Asylum in Nairobi, Kenya

f*** off you moronic, dumb slav & go back to shovelling shit/roadsweeping/banging your goat/sister/mother & other standard dumb slav activities, & don't bother posting anymore drivel

they woud improve, but possibly not as much as a sea-level guy on epo

posters go on about kenyans not having high haematocrits at altitude ( which comes as a surprise to me ), but knowlegeable guys have said they have increased plasma volume which dilutes haematocrit to normalish values ( not sure about this either )

however, their total red cell numbers will be higher pound for pound & they will have more oxygen availablity at sea-level than euro guys

epo use woud boost kenyan rbc production, but for same dose as a euro guy, it woudn't work as well as the bone marrow for a kenyan is already pretty much in overdrive because of the altitude stimulating it & woud struggle to produce many more rbc

as an example : if you had a kenyan & euro guy, both 3'32 normally , pump them same dose of epo & the euro may go 3'29, but kenyan may only go 3'30+

because he had so much better speed ( at least until noah/bernie came along )

he had likely 12'50 ability at his peak 1500

now, you coud argue there have been close to a dozen kenyans who couda gone 12'50 ( some like komen/big choge much quicker & also guys like songok/cherono have gone well below & i think quite a few of the 12'50 - 12'55 guys couda gone below, but poor wabbiting/tactical races starting at 4k )

for those kenyans, i doubt many coud go quicker than 1'48

12'50 with

1'48 ->3'32.3

which is similar to guys like cherono/big choge & most of kenyan 12'50 - 12'55 guys

1'47 ->3'31.1

1'46 ->3'29.9

1'45 ->3'28.6

1'44 ->3'27.4

last line looks similar to morceli ( most anyone who saw him run 13'03 after jogging to the bell & then blasting a 51s wouda given him close to 12'50 in perfect wabbited race )

1'43 ->3'26.12

near enough hicham

he likely had 1'43.0 ability at his 1500 prime & no kenyan before him coud come close to that ( noah/bernie did come after him )

anyone who wants to run 3'26 better have damn good speed no matter how good your endurance : look at komen : he musta been ~ 12'40 ( maybe quicker ) when he ran 7'20

12'40 & i'd offer him not much better than 1'47 at the time ->3'30.1

does indicate hicham was worth better than 3'26.0

53s in a 3'26.0 does indicate probably nearer 3'25-flat in a "perfect" race, but he coud never get a wabbit to get him to bell in 2'30-flat ( came close in rieti '02 )

I would tend to agree with your assertions pertaining to the requisite 800 ability, whether necessarily shown in a race or not, in order to dip much under 3:30, and certainly to reach the rarefied air of 3:26.

This of course further refutes the nonsense posited by the Czech guy, as looking at the plethora of excellent 800 meter runners Kenya has produced, it seems odd that, accepting his inane premise that they lack the "necessities" to run fast at these distances, that more of them wouldn't have produced faster times at 1500, where their ostensible disadvantaged anatomy would be comparatively less deleterious than at 800 (according to his nonsensical theory).

This brings up a point. If 1:43 ability appears necessary to run 3:26, then one might look at the current 800 crop to find the next 1500 star. Of course, Asbel is in the picture, but I wonder if Yego might have a future there. Currently his 1:42.67 would appear to make moving up unnecessary, but I note he did run 3:33.68 last year, showing some promise there. Of course Kamal has had some success in moving up, becoming world champion last year and having run 3:31.56. And Laalou of Morocco has run 1:43.25 and now 3:29.53.

'And you should take into consideration that many of those small African 1500 m runners may have run fast only due to EPO use'

You are a f***ing idiot

chet

a lot of these 1500 races in last few years have had very poor pacing ( as canova said, they don't pay the pacers much nowdays & you are getting substandard ones )

i expected this race to be another run-of-the-mill 3'32 beforehand, but krum is a great pacer & choge wanted a big time

i suspect a lot of these 3'32 guys out there are actually 3'29/3'30 guys but just can't find someone to go 56/1'52/2'34

we seem to get from pacers :

54/55 then anywhere between 1'50 - 1'54 then 2'36/2'37

you can't run 3'29/3'30 off that rubbish

( but i suspect, if we evened out the splits, the "energy expenditure" woud indicate a 3'29/3'30 )

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'And you should take into consideration that many of those small African 1500 m runners may have run fast only due to EPO use'

You are a f***ing idiot

Well, you are right that I should correct my statement. Maybe not "many", but virtually all. Hardly any world class Kenyan since 1995 has been clean.

chet wrote:

This of course further refutes the nonsense posited by the Czech guy, as looking at the plethora of excellent 800 meter runners Kenya has produced...

...running always the same times for quarter a century.

It seems odd that, accepting his inane premise that they lack the "necessities" to run fast at these distances, that more of them wouldn't have produced faster times at 1500, where their ostensible disadvantaged anatomy would be comparatively less deleterious than at 800 (according to his nonsensical theory).

Inane premise? May I ask you for something? Look at this years' stats of the 800 m and compare them with times from 1984-1985. What do you see? A guy running 0.2 sec faster than a guy 25 years ago? What's so difficult on understanding that among small people you won't find too many tall people?

The state of the 800 m can't be taken too seriously, because this distance hasn't been as prestigious as the 1500 m/mile and the participation rate was relatively very meagre. This is why Kenyans always performed "better" in the 800 m than in the 1500 m during the last decades.

The improbably high success of other ethnicities, e.g. black Americans or even Cubanese in this distance further confirms this point. Otherwise it would be an utter physiological anomaly boggling one's mind.

Czech guy wrote:

What's so difficult on understanding that among small people you won't find too many tall people?

You truly have a simple mind...

I suppose these little guys could have been contenders had they only been a little taller?

Wilson Kipketer 1:41.11 5'10

Wilfred Bungei 1:42.34 5'10

Alfred Yego 1:42.67 almost 5'9

Japhet Kimutai 1:42.69 almost 5'9

Fred Onyancha 1:42.79 almost 5'7

William Yiampoy 1:42.91 almost 5'9

Benson Koech 1:43.17 5'9

So now you want us to believe that these Kenyans used EPO and that IF only the 6 foot 3 inch Caucasians would have the audacity to do so, they'd have to run under 1:40 according to your theory...You are beyond stupid.

'Hardly any world class Kenyan since 1995 has been clean.'

Any proof of that? Plenty of elites from other countries have failed tests - but no true elite Ethiopian or Kenyan

Stop going on about height as well, the world record holder is only 5'9. Even if he was on EPO by your stupid thinking a taller athlete on EPO would hold the WR

ventolin^3 wrote:a lot of these 1500 races in last few years have had very poor pacing ( as canova said, they don't pay the pacers much nowdays & you are getting substandard ones )

i expected this race to be another run-of-the-mill 3'32 beforehand, but krum is a great pacer & choge wanted a big time

i suspect a lot of these 3'32 guys out there are actually 3'29/3'30 guys but just can't find someone to go 56/1'52/2'34

we seem to get from pacers :

54/55 then anywhere between 1'50 - 1'54 then 2'36/2'37

you can't run 3'29/3'30 off that rubbish

( but i suspect, if we evened out the splits, the "energy expenditure" woud indicate a 3'29/3'30 )

doing the actual numbercrunching :

lets say 3'32.0 is default time from defective wabbits with 2 "usual" splits for the winner ( difference is between 2'36 & 2'37 bell split )

a) 54.5 / 1'54.0 ( 59.5 ) / 2'36.0 ( 42.0 ) / 3'32.0 ( 56.0 )

b) 54.5 / 1'54.0 ( 59.5 ) / 2'37.0 ( 43.0 ) / 3'32.0 ( 55.0 )

for 3'32.0 run at "perfect" even pace -> "energy" of

1500 * ( 1500/212 ) ^3 = 531321u

for

a) 400 * ( 400/54.5 )^3 = 158144u

400 * ( 400/59.5 )^3 = 121532u

300 * ( 300/42.0 )^3 = 109330u

400 * ( 400/56.0 )^3 = 145773u

= 534779u -> 212 * ( 531321/534779 ) =

3'30.7

b) 400 * ( 400/54.5 )^3 = 158144u

400 * ( 400/59.5 )^3 = 121532u

300 * ( 300/43.0 )^3 = 101878u

400 * ( 400/55.0 )^3 = 153870u

= 535424u -> 212 * ( 531321/535424 ) =

3'30.4

this indicates that 3'30 is more accurate representation of the ability of these 3'32 circuit guys...

criteriaman wrote:

do you have the same suspicions about Wheating? Solinsky? Erin Donahue? Ritzenhein? Hall? Shalane? They've all had some pretty impressive breakthroughs in the last couple of years.

Last Lap wrote:

...and they've been showered with doping accusations on this board mercilessly every time they PR. Meanwhile, Kenyans get a pass for being "naturally" gifted.

Utter BS.

Please show us where Wheating has been "showered with criticism" on this board. More like showered by drool from his bandwagon. Certainly nothing like every time a Kenyan PRs.