No I am talking about having championship medals. Which current 1500m runner have more championship medals? Cole Hocker got a sixt, a seventh, then a gold. Nuguse got a fifth and a bronze, Kerr (strongest competitor) did get a bronze, fifth, gold and silver.
Does a sixt, seventh and gold scream championship runner over a gold, silver, silver, fourth?
I dont understand the * people put on J.I championship record. The only way it makes sense is if you measure J.I against the rest of the world. But when arguing who is the best it can't be "everyone else" it has to be someone. Jakob has been at the podium at three of the four last global championships, only one runner can say the same. So how come running in championships is a unique liability with Jakob? Isn't it more that in the 1500 almost every champion loses to someone next time around?
I look at it as measuring an athlete's global championship performances against their world standing. The perception of a silver or bronze medal varies greatly based on an athlete's standing in the world. Nordas winning bronze in 2023 was fantastic for him because most people wouldn't have considered him the third best 1500m runner in the world going into those championships. At the end of the year, he was only 10th on the world's fastest times list. In contrast, if Jakob wins bronze in Tokyo this year, that would probably be seen by most people as a disappointment because of his world standing.
Compare how the current Fantastic Four have fared the last four years in global championship finals relative to their standing on the world's fastest times list.
Ingebrigtsen
2021: #2 time, #1 in the Olympics
2022: #1 time, #2 in the World Championships
2023: #1 time, #2 in the WC
2024: #1 time, #4 in the Olympics
Kerr
2021: #4 time, #3 in the Olympics
2022: #9 time, #5 in the WC
2023: #8 time, #1 in the WC
2024: #3 time, #2 in the Olympics
Hocker
2021: #11 time, #6 in the Olympics
2022: #40 time, N/A in the WC
2023: #15 time, #7 in the WC
2024: #2 time, #1 in the Olympics
Nuguse:
2021: #55 time, injured in the Olympics
2022: #18 time, N/A in the WC
2023: #3 time, #5 in the WC
2024: #4 time, #3 in the Olympics
Based on how they've performed in outdoor global championship 1500m races in comparison to their respective world standings, it's fair to say that Kerr and Hocker are the best 1500m global championship racers of the four. Or, perhaps: their strengths are more suited to global championship 1500m racing.
You always make up an arbitrary criteria to suit your own claims. It doesn’t matter what somebody’s standing in the world is. They are all the same runners with the same goal in mind of winning the race. Jakob clearly still has the best CV over these championships.
I look at it as measuring an athlete's global championship performances against their world standing. The perception of a silver or bronze medal varies greatly based on an athlete's standing in the world. Nordas winning bronze in 2023 was fantastic for him because most people wouldn't have considered him the third best 1500m runner in the world going into those championships. At the end of the year, he was only 10th on the world's fastest times list. In contrast, if Jakob wins bronze in Tokyo this year, that would probably be seen by most people as a disappointment because of his world standing.
Compare how the current Fantastic Four have fared the last four years in global championship finals relative to their standing on the world's fastest times list.
Ingebrigtsen
2021: #2 time, #1 in the Olympics
2022: #1 time, #2 in the World Championships
2023: #1 time, #2 in the WC
2024: #1 time, #4 in the Olympics
Kerr
2021: #4 time, #3 in the Olympics
2022: #9 time, #5 in the WC
2023: #8 time, #1 in the WC
2024: #3 time, #2 in the Olympics
Hocker
2021: #11 time, #6 in the Olympics
2022: #40 time, N/A in the WC
2023: #15 time, #7 in the WC
2024: #2 time, #1 in the Olympics
Nuguse:
2021: #55 time, injured in the Olympics
2022: #18 time, N/A in the WC
2023: #3 time, #5 in the WC
2024: #4 time, #3 in the Olympics
Based on how they've performed in outdoor global championship 1500m races in comparison to their respective world standings, it's fair to say that Kerr and Hocker are the best 1500m global championship racers of the four.Or, perhaps: their strengths are more suited to global championship 1500m racing.
If you think being 9th fastest in the world and finishing 5th is better than having the fastest time and finishing second I just plainly disagree. Its easier to do better than your ranking when you are 9th, to put it mildly.
"Or, perhaps: their strengths are more suited to global championship 1500m racing."
Both of these have worse performance in championships. Maybe you just expect less from them?
You always make up an arbitrary criteria to suit your own claims. It doesn’t matter what somebody’s standing in the world is. They are all the same runners with the same goal in mind of winning the race. Jakob clearly still has the best CV over these championships.
Please be honest: as a Jakob fan, were you excited by his 2nd, 2nd, and 4th place finishes in the last three outdoor global championship 1500m finals, or were you disappointed?
You always make up an arbitrary criteria to suit your own claims. It doesn’t matter what somebody’s standing in the world is. They are all the same runners with the same goal in mind of winning the race. Jakob clearly still has the best CV over these championships.
Please be honest: as a Jakob fan, were you excited by his 2nd, 2nd, and 4th place finishes in the last three outdoor global championship 1500m finals, or were you disappointed?
Jakob could run the second best 1500 time as a career best, and some people (including him?) would be disappointed. But that doesn't mean that he wouldn't be the second fastest in the 1500m all time.
People here say that time trials is not the same as championships, yet they use the time trials as evidence that he is in fact not a good championship runner. Well disregard the time trials completely, who have won most championship medals the last four years?
I can’t really prescribe to a thinking where being 10th best in the world and finish 5th is better than being 1st in the world and finish 2nd. Even counting for where they are in their career, as its more beneficial to be a late bloomer?
Everything can happen at a championship final, yet the fact is Ingebrigtsen have been at the podium of an international championship final every year since 2018 or so. There had not been anyone as consistent in championship finals the latest years.
I don't disagree with you, though Kerr has gone 1-2 whereas Jakob has gone 2-4 over the last two years. The problem lies in that Hocker has proven to be an outstanding championship performer when healthy dating back to 2021 and is young, entering his prime. Yes he was not on the level to beat the top 5 that year, but it was still an overachievement.
This is not Jake Wightman who was older, not particularly prolific at British/European/Commonwealth events for his level. Then a couple weeks later after his world title almost to underscore the point he got bronze at the Comm Games. It's not Josh Kerr, who was older and had 2022 which should raise a few doubts over his consistency year to year. Though that is not particularly encouraging as Kerr isn't super old either, and fared better than Jakob last year, even with a successful season before.
I know you can probably say well look at Hocker's post-Paris results. The counter is looking back his USAs performance was probably the third best winning performance of the year overall, I'll give #1/2 to Paris and Monaco. Now he's just run 7:23, so you have to wonder if he's basically done what Kerr did last year in consolidating his improved fitness. If so, you can talk resumes all you want but that won't matter when they line up in Tokyo.
Please be honest: as a Jakob fan, were you excited by his 2nd, 2nd, and 4th place finishes in the last three outdoor global championship 1500m finals, or were you disappointed?
Jakob could run the second best 1500 time as a career best, and some people (including him?) would be disappointed. But that doesn't mean that he wouldn't be the second fastest in the 1500m all time.
People here say that time trials is not the same as championships, yet they use the time trials as evidence that he is in fact not a good championship runner. Well disregard the time trials completely, who have won most championship medals the last four years?
It's telling that you didn't directly answer my question.
I can’t really prescribe to a thinking where being 10th best in the world and finish 5th is better than being 1st in the world and finish 2nd. Even counting for where they are in their career, as its more beneficial to be a late bloomer?
Everything can happen at a championship final, yet the fact is Ingebrigtsen have been at the podium of an international championship final every year since 2018 or so. There had not been anyone as consistent in championship finals the latest years.
I don't disagree with you, though Kerr has gone 1-2 whereas Jakob has gone 2-4 over the last two years. The problem lies in that Hocker has proven to be an outstanding championship performer when healthy dating back to 2021 and is young, entering his prime. Yes he was not on the level to beat the top 5 that year, but it was still an overachievement.
This is not Jake Wightman who was older, not particularly prolific at British/European/Commonwealth events for his level. Then a couple weeks later after his world title almost to underscore the point he got bronze at the Comm Games. It's not Josh Kerr, who was older and had 2022 which should raise a few doubts over his consistency year to year. Though that is not particularly encouraging as Kerr isn't super old either, and fared better than Jakob last year, even with a successful season before.
I know you can probably say well look at Hocker's post-Paris results. The counter is looking back his USAs performance was probably the third best winning performance of the year overall, I'll give #1/2 to Paris and Monaco. Now he's just run 7:23, so you have to wonder if he's basically done what Kerr did last year in consolidating his improved fitness. If so, you can talk resumes all you want but that won't matter when they line up in Tokyo.
I think this is a reasonable post, but if we are talking about USAs then we also need to look at J.I 3x1500m golds at euros (not counting his two indoor golds), and 3x 1500/mile golds at Diamond League. It would also be tempting to remind people of Kerrs 12th(?) Place at commonwealth games. I also have to question the framing that a 5th is a fantastic championship performance, while being a medallist at two consecutive worlds is by most brushed away as failures.
J.I is doomed to end up as a worse championship runner if a 5th (Hocker) is better than a 2nd, a fourth is a failure but a 5th (Kerr) is forgotten.
I do agree that Kerr and Hocker has had better championship the last two years though.
This post was edited 53 seconds after it was posted.
Jakob could run the second best 1500 time as a career best, and some people (including him?) would be disappointed. But that doesn't mean that he wouldn't be the second fastest in the 1500m all time.
People here say that time trials is not the same as championships, yet they use the time trials as evidence that he is in fact not a good championship runner. Well disregard the time trials completely, who have won most championship medals the last four years?
It's telling that you didn't directly answer my question.
No it isnt, ofcourse I was disappointed. No one was disappointed when Hocker was fifth at the olympics in 21' that doesnt mean its a better result than a medal, it just means that no one expected him to win.
You always make up an arbitrary criteria to suit your own claims. It doesn’t matter what somebody’s standing in the world is. They are all the same runners with the same goal in mind of winning the race. Jakob clearly still has the best CV over these championships.
Please be honest: as a Jakob fan, were you excited by his 2nd, 2nd, and 4th place finishes in the last three outdoor global championship 1500m finals, or were you disappointed?
That has nothing to do with who the best is? Jesus christ. You’re basically saying that if you win one medal in a championship when you weren’t the fastest that year, then that is somehow better than someone who has 1) Faster times and 2) More medals. Laughable logic. I’ll give you this though. If Kerr finishes ahead of Jakob in Tokyo, then yes, he is the better championship performer. But that isn’t based on my feelings, it’s based on fact.
This post was edited 23 seconds after it was posted.
I can’t really prescribe to a thinking where being 10th best in the world and finish 5th is better than being 1st in the world and finish 2nd. Even counting for where they are in their career, as its more beneficial to be a late bloomer?
Everything can happen at a championship final, yet the fact is Ingebrigtsen have been at the podium of an international championship final every year since 2018 or so. There had not been anyone as consistent in championship finals the latest years.
I don't disagree with you, though Kerr has gone 1-2 whereas Jakob has gone 2-4 over the last two years. The problem lies in that Hocker has proven to be an outstanding championship performer when healthy dating back to 2021 and is young, entering his prime. Yes he was not on the level to beat the top 5 that year, but it was still an overachievement.
This is not Jake Wightman who was older, not particularly prolific at British/European/Commonwealth events for his level. Then a couple weeks later after his world title almost to underscore the point he got bronze at the Comm Games. It's not Josh Kerr, who was older and had 2022 which should raise a few doubts over his consistency year to year. Though that is not particularly encouraging as Kerr isn't super old either, and fared better than Jakob last year, even with a successful season before.
I know you can probably say well look at Hocker's post-Paris results. The counter is looking back his USAs performance was probably the third best winning performance of the year overall, I'll give #1/2 to Paris and Monaco. Now he's just run 7:23, so you have to wonder if he's basically done what Kerr did last year in consolidating his improved fitness. If so, you can talk resumes all you want but that won't matter when they line up in Tokyo.
Dude, you keep citing Hocker’s wins at USA’s as proof that he is a great championship performer. Uh, who has won the last three European Championship 1500m Titles, while pushing significantly from the front. Jakob, as an 18 year old, literally out ran Wightman and Lewandowski in Berlin. The reality is that most of you forget about these things because you can only look at his paced races. I’m not sure if it’s bias or just unawareness.
No it isnt, ofcourse I was disappointed. No one was disappointed when Hocker was fifth at the olympics in 21' that doesnt mean its a better result than a medal, it just means that no one expected him to win.
Correct. Expectations matter when evaluating a performance. In Paris, Jakob finished one spot ahead of Kessler. So, objectively, sure: Jakob had a better race than Kessler. But if we're evaluating their performances based on their expectations and world standings, who did better: the guy who overachieved to finish 5th, or the pre-race favorite who underachieved to finish 4th?
Dude, you keep citing Hocker’s wins at USA’s as proof that he is a great championship performer. Uh, who has won the last three European Championship 1500m Titles, while pushing significantly from the front. Jakob, as an 18 year old, literally out ran Wightman and Lewandowski in Berlin. The reality is that most of you forget about these things because you can only look at his paced races. I’m not sure if it’s bias or just unawareness.
In 2024, Hocker beat Olympics positions 3 and 5 at USAs. The top guy Jakob beat was Gourley at a distant position 10. Last year it was just a plain tougher competition.
2022 Jakob got Jake Heyward (didn’t make Worlds, PB 3:31.0), and Mario Garcia Romo (position 4 at Worlds, true). 2018, the names sound impressive but Wightman was a back of the pack DL guy then and Lewandowski was just making the transition. Doesn’t quite help your argument that Jakob was way better the next year but in a championship lost to Lewandowski.
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.
I don't disagree with you, though Kerr has gone 1-2 whereas Jakob has gone 2-4 over the last two years. The problem lies in that Hocker has proven to be an outstanding championship performer when healthy dating back to 2021 and is young, entering his prime. Yes he was not on the level to beat the top 5 that year, but it was still an overachievement.
This is not Jake Wightman who was older, not particularly prolific at British/European/Commonwealth events for his level. Then a couple weeks later after his world title almost to underscore the point he got bronze at the Comm Games. It's not Josh Kerr, who was older and had 2022 which should raise a few doubts over his consistency year to year. Though that is not particularly encouraging as Kerr isn't super old either, and fared better than Jakob last year, even with a successful season before.
I know you can probably say well look at Hocker's post-Paris results. The counter is looking back his USAs performance was probably the third best winning performance of the year overall, I'll give #1/2 to Paris and Monaco. Now he's just run 7:23, so you have to wonder if he's basically done what Kerr did last year in consolidating his improved fitness. If so, you can talk resumes all you want but that won't matter when they line up in Tokyo.
Dude, you keep citing Hocker’s wins at USA’s as proof that he is a great championship performer. Uh, who has won the last three European Championship 1500m Titles, while pushing significantly from the front. Jakob, as an 18 year old, literally out ran Wightman and Lewandowski in Berlin. The reality is that most of you forget about these things because you can only look at his paced races. I’m not sure if it’s bias or just unawareness.
Like many of you, I’ve watched just about every meaningful 1500/mile race run by Jakob, Kerr, Hocker, Nguse and all of the rest of the top guys. I can’t believe that anybody can do that and sincerely pick anybody as being better than Jakob. Yes, the best person can lose, even lose a big race. This happens all of the time in sports. Andy Murray beat Djokovic at Wimbledon. Has Andy Murray ever been a better tennis player than Djokovic? Never, not even on that day. Now, maybe Hocker will become better. It’s possible, but I doubt it.
I don't disagree with you, though Kerr has gone 1-2 whereas Jakob has gone 2-4 over the last two years. The problem lies in that Hocker has proven to be an outstanding championship performer when healthy dating back to 2021 and is young, entering his prime. Yes he was not on the level to beat the top 5 that year, but it was still an overachievement.
This is not Jake Wightman who was older, not particularly prolific at British/European/Commonwealth events for his level. Then a couple weeks later after his world title almost to underscore the point he got bronze at the Comm Games. It's not Josh Kerr, who was older and had 2022 which should raise a few doubts over his consistency year to year. Though that is not particularly encouraging as Kerr isn't super old either, and fared better than Jakob last year, even with a successful season before.
I know you can probably say well look at Hocker's post-Paris results. The counter is looking back his USAs performance was probably the third best winning performance of the year overall, I'll give #1/2 to Paris and Monaco. Now he's just run 7:23, so you have to wonder if he's basically done what Kerr did last year in consolidating his improved fitness. If so, you can talk resumes all you want but that won't matter when they line up in Tokyo.
I think this is a reasonable post, but if we are talking about USAs then we also need to look at J.I 3x1500m golds at euros (not counting his two indoor golds), and 3x 1500/mile golds at Diamond League. It would also be tempting to remind people of Kerrs 12th(?) Place at commonwealth games. I also have to question the framing that a 5th is a fantastic championship performance, while being a medallist at two consecutive worlds is by most brushed away as failures.
J.I is doomed to end up as a worse championship runner if a 5th (Hocker) is better than a 2nd, a fourth is a failure but a 5th (Kerr) is forgotten.
I do agree that Kerr and Hocker has had better championship the last two years though.
Jakob coming up to get his 3rd European Championship 1500m title which is held every two years. Meanwhile Kerr can’t show up or win a single one, Hocker has only won twice in the last 5 years (even though they are held yearly), and Nuguse won’t compete. I wonder who is the better 1500m runner 🤔
Dude, you keep citing Hocker’s wins at USA’s as proof that he is a great championship performer. Uh, who has won the last three European Championship 1500m Titles, while pushing significantly from the front. Jakob, as an 18 year old, literally out ran Wightman and Lewandowski in Berlin. The reality is that most of you forget about these things because you can only look at his paced races. I’m not sure if it’s bias or just unawareness.
In 2024, Hocker beat Olympics positions 3 and 5 at USAs. The top guy Jakob beat was Gourley at a distant position 10. Last year it was just a plain tougher competition.
2022 Jakob got Jake Heyward (didn’t make Worlds, PB 3:31.0), and Mario Garcia Romo (position 4 at Worlds, true). 2018, the names sound impressive but Wightman was a back of the pack DL guy then and Lewandowski was just making the transition. Doesn’t quite help your argument that Jakob was way better the next year but in a championship lost to Lewandowski.
Lets be a bit sensible here. In '23 Hocker was third, beaten by Waskom who got a 3:35 pb. In '22 he didnt qualify to the final. Stop acting like beating Lewandowski, Garcia and Wightman is some kind of liability.
I don't disagree with you, though Kerr has gone 1-2 whereas Jakob has gone 2-4 over the last two years. The problem lies in that Hocker has proven to be an outstanding championship performer when healthy dating back to 2021 and is young, entering his prime. Yes he was not on the level to beat the top 5 that year, but it was still an overachievement.
This is not Jake Wightman who was older, not particularly prolific at British/European/Commonwealth events for his level. Then a couple weeks later after his world title almost to underscore the point he got bronze at the Comm Games. It's not Josh Kerr, who was older and had 2022 which should raise a few doubts over his consistency year to year. Though that is not particularly encouraging as Kerr isn't super old either, and fared better than Jakob last year, even with a successful season before.
I know you can probably say well look at Hocker's post-Paris results. The counter is looking back his USAs performance was probably the third best winning performance of the year overall, I'll give #1/2 to Paris and Monaco. Now he's just run 7:23, so you have to wonder if he's basically done what Kerr did last year in consolidating his improved fitness. If so, you can talk resumes all you want but that won't matter when they line up in Tokyo.
Dude, you keep citing Hocker’s wins at USA’s as proof that he is a great championship performer. Uh, who has won the last three European Championship 1500m Titles, while pushing significantly from the front. Jakob, as an 18 year old, literally out ran Wightman and Lewandowski in Berlin. The reality is that most of you forget about these things because you can only look at his paced races. I’m not sure if it’s bias or just unawareness.
You always make up an arbitrary criteria to suit your own claims. It doesn’t matter what somebody’s standing in the world is. They are all the same runners with the same goal in mind of winning the race. Jakob clearly still has the best CV over these championships.
Please be honest: as a Jakob fan, were you excited by his 2nd, 2nd, and 4th place finishes in the last three outdoor global championship 1500m finals, or were you disappointed?
Please be honest: Were you excited that neither Kerr, Hocker, or Nuguse made it to the 1500 final, despite claiming that two out of the three guys were superior championship 1500m runners?
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