VIT wrote: i get you're a conservative and think nothing ever changes but we have evolved past such things as slavery and apartheid also. in 1860 you could own another human being. in 1960 you could tell a black person they couldn't vote or be in your town after dark. in the longer historical sweep these positions look like trash.
Let's start by granting you that human progress (as you described it) is moving towards more tolerance and equality of opportunity. As a liberal person, I support that. I am not a "radical" for saying I am in favor of kindness and tolerance.
But the trope of "it is only a few kids" is turning out to not be true. It is a handful of kids at every school (in Blue states, at least). And of those kids, more than a handful are good (male) athletes. That is enough to really change the competitive landscape for girls.
But what nobody on the Left ever answers is what should the girls do in this scenario? Someone on this thread said the solution is to "get your OR girls faster" but that is idiotic --- the OSAA winning times for boys this year will be faster than the women's world records in many events. Telling girls to "be faster" is literally impossible.
Honestly, I would like the "just let them run" trans-advocates to explain what we should do when one good male athlete (running as a girl) wins four events at high school state? Do the girls just have to suck it up? Should they just shut up and take the L as a sex? What are we asking the girls to do?
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
VIT wrote: i get you're a conservative and think nothing ever changes but we have evolved past such things as slavery and apartheid also. in 1860 you could own another human being. in 1960 you could tell a black person they couldn't vote or be in your town after dark. in the longer historical sweep these positions look like trash.
Let's start by granting you that human progress (as you described it) is moving towards more tolerance and equality of opportunity. As a liberal person, I support that. I am not a "radical" for saying I am in favor of kindness and tolerance.
But the trope of "it is only a few kids" is turning out to not be true. It is a handful of kids at every school (in Blue states, at least). And of those kids, more than a handful are good (male) athletes. That is enough to really change the competitive landscape for girls.
But what nobody on the Left ever answers is what should the girls do in this scenario? Someone on this thread said the solution is to "get your OR girls faster" but that is idiotic --- the OSAA winning times for boys this year will be faster than the women's world records in many events. Telling girls to "be faster" is literally impossible.
Honestly, I would like the "just let them run" trans-advocates to explain what we should do when one good male athlete (running as a girl) wins four events at high school state? Do the girls just have to suck it up? Should they just shut up and take the L as a sex? What are we asking the girls to do?
You tell us! you are the lib that supports all this trans, crt, dei stuff. Juat saw your daughter/son walk out of thems graduation
The State Meet in Eugene will be the focus of the entire sports world next week due to horrifically poor leadership by the state governing organization, OSAA, which is allowing this injustice
LOL! Sure, in the midst of the NBA and NHL playoffs, we’re all going to stop to see what’s going down at the Oregon high school state track meet. 😹
I look forward to Scott Van Pelt providing special coverage of this huge event on Sports Center, and Stephen A Smith dedicating an entire hour of First Take on it. Maybe all the playoff games will be canceled since everybody’s attention will be focused on Oregon. 😹
This might become a serious problem if he ultimately challenges the national records. As a sophomore, his PR is 23.77. #10 on the all-time HS list is Abby Steiner at 22.73. One second is a lot to improve in a 200m but who knows what can happen in two years. His 400m of 54.31 is pedestrian compared to the best high school girls who have all run low 51s or faster.
Sadly, with Brahe-Petersen on the sidelines, he might win the state meet. Lia Thomas at the high school level.
This is the runner the OP is talking about in case you haven't seen the video.
You tell us! you are the lib that supports all this trans, crt, dei stuff. Juat saw your daughter/son walk out of thems graduation
I never said I support "all that DEI stuff" as such. I am a tolerant person but I think people (on the Left and the Right) fall in love with their ideologies and can't see when they have gone too far.
In the case of transgender people, I do think that they deserve to be treated with respect and given access to normal aspects of life just like any other person but not at the expense of girls. That is a step too far. Just like smokers have the right to smoke, but not at the expense of non-smokers. Your rights end when you start making other people's lives worse...
So my suggestion is that if trans-girls (biological males) want to run with the girls, they need to do so on a non-competitive level. Run a road race as a girl and get 93rd place. Join the JV girls XC team and jog along in the mid-pack with a time of 24:50 or whatever. But you can't show up and dominate others. That is just unfair to girls. You are ruining it for every other girl in the whole league or school or district or whatever.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
How on earth can you say with a straight face in 2024 that people who follow and post about sex divisions and classification in sports take the position that DSD athletes are "an issue you want to pretend doesn't exist"?
because you can only act like WA has some "dismissive" standard if you ignore that an intersex can compete if they are within a testosterone limit and some other criteria, and then not in some events. to be fair, there are some world sports federations that do ban intersex. WA isn't one of them.
Calling someone with a DSD "an intersex" is just as dehumanizing and insulting as calling them the other stigmatizing slur you used earlier. Sheesh.
As for your claim that "there are some world sports federations that do ban intersex" athletes - that's total BS.
Banning people with DSDs from sports because they have DSDs would be immoral - and it's also clearly illegal under the laws that prevail in the places where the world's global governing bodies for sports are headquartered. No world sports governing body could get away with doing this.
Nearly all the governing bodies that set the rules for international sports competition around the world - such as the IOC, World Atheltics, FIFA, UCI, ITF, IWF, FIVB, World Aquatics, International Gymnastics Federation, International [Field] Hockey Federation, International Basketball Federation, and many more - are located in European countries which have strong laws that prohibit unfair discrimination against people on the grounds of a wide variety of personal characteristics including sex, genetic features, disabilities and various health conditions.
It's true that some/most sports governing bodies have rules in place that prohibit male DSD athletes with male genetics; intact, functioniong testes; male levels of T; and male androgen receptors in good working order from competing in the female category - or which allow them to compete in the female category only if they meet certain conditions.
But that doesn't mean these athletes - or DSD athletes generally - are banned from any sports.
Athletes with XY DSDs who have testes that pump out male levels of T and who've reaped the physical advantages that come from going through male puberty - like runner Caster Semenya and soccer/football Barbra Banda - have always been free to compete in the male/open category of their respective sports. Moreover, sports governing bodies like WA, FIFA and the IOC have created extremely generous and lenient rules for the express purpose of giving athletes with the sorts of male DSDs that Semenya and Banda have special allowances to make it possible for them to compete in the female category.
But again, the policies that say male athletes with a small number of DSDs must reduce the levels of testosterone their testes naturally produce in order to compete in the female category only apply to a small number of DSD conditions that affect male sex development.
People with any one of the approximately 35 other kinds of DSD conditions - including the ones that affect female sex development like classic CAH, MRKH and Turner syndrome - all can participate and compete in all sports under the same eligibility standards and rules that apply to everyone else.
This post was edited 14 minutes after it was posted.
because you can only act like WA has some "dismissive" standard if you ignore that an intersex can compete if they are within a testosterone limit and some other criteria, and then not in some events. to be fair, there are some world sports federations that do ban intersex. WA isn't one of them.
Calling someone with a DSD "an intersex" is just as dehumanizing and insulting as calling them the other stigmatizing slur you used earlier. Sheesh.
As for your claim that "there are some world sports federations that do ban intersex" athletes - that's total BS.
Banning people with DSDs from sports because they have DSDs would be immoral - and it's also clearly illegal under the laws that prevail in the places where the world's global governing bodies for sports are headquartered. No world sports governing body could get away with doing this.
Nearly all the governing bodies that set the rules for international sports competition around the world - such as the IOC, World Atheltics, FIFA, UCI, ITF, IWF, FIVB, World Aquatics, International Gymnastics Federation, International [Field] Hockey Federation, International Basketball Federation, and many more - are located in European countries which have strong laws that prohibit unfair discrimination against people on the grounds of a wide variety of personal characteristics including sex, genetic features, disabilities and various health conditions.
It's true that some/most sports governing bodies have rules in place that prohibit male DSD athletes with male genetics; intact, functioniong testes; male levels of T; and male androgen receptors in good working order from competing in the female category - or which allow them to compete in the female category only if they meet certain conditions.
But that doesn't mean these athletes - or DSD athletes generally - are banned from any sports.
Athletes with XY DSDs who have testes that pump out male levels of T and who've reaped the physical advantages that come from going through male puberty - like runner Caster Semenya and soccer/football Barbra Banda - have always been free to compete in the male/open category of their respective sports. Moreover, sports governing bodies like WA, FIFA and the IOC have created extremely generous and lenient rules for the express purpose of giving athletes with the sorts of male DSDs that Semenya and Banda have special allowances to make it possible for them to compete in the female category.
But again, the policies that say male athletes with a small number of DSDs must reduce the levels of testosterone their testes naturally produce in order to compete in the female category only apply to a small number of DSD conditions that affect male sex development.
People with any one of the approximately 35 other kinds of DSD conditions - including the ones that affect female sex development like classic CAH, MRKH and Turner syndrome - all can participate and compete in all sports under the same eligibility standards and rules that apply to everyone else.
No, “intersex” is not dehumanizing and the intersex and the overwhelming majority of the medical and scientific community don’t think that either.
Since when did you start caring about not offending DSDs anyway? Seems like you only care about it when you fear that using the term risks shaking up your singleminded agenda of a sex binary. Absolutely no DSD person who has read your drivel cares for your supposed dehumanization avoidance.
If a transwoman runs but her time doesn't count, she has still occupied a lane that a real woman should have.
Most tracks these days have extra lanes. No worry about a cis woman losing a lane to a trans athlete.
And in distance races and field events, there is not fixed number to be accommodated.
Kenyans (actually any foreign nationals) who live and train in Japan are allowed to compete in the Japanese National Championships, although they are not eligible for any award. They appreciate the opportunity to compete at a high level.
There has never been any complaint from Japanese athletes over this arrangement. Actually, this is a great opportunity for someone like Nozomi Tanaka who gets to face real competition instead of running a virtual solo time trial against overmatched competitors.
Instead the actual requirements are in addition to gender identity:
3.2.2 They must not have experienced any part of male puberty either beyond Tanner Stage 2 or after age 12 (whichever comes first).
3.2.3 Since puberty they must have continuously maintained the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L.
3.2.4 They must continue to maintain the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L at all times (i.e., whether they are in competition or out of competition) for so long as they wish to retain eligibility to compete in the female classification at World Rankings Competitions and/or have recognised any World Record performance in the female classification at a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition.
So unless you're arguing that male puberty is something that is unrelated to biology, classifications are not strictly gender classifications.
Most people on this board, including brojos are against this World Athletics policy because it allows some trans women to compete in the women's division. They believe trans women should never be allowed to compete in the women's division even if they have no competitive advantage over cis women.
Let's start by granting you that human progress (as you described it) is moving towards more tolerance and equality of opportunity. As a liberal person, I support that. I am not a "radical" for saying I am in favor of kindness and tolerance.
But the trope of "it is only a few kids" is turning out to not be true. It is a handful of kids at every school (in Blue states, at least). And of those kids, more than a handful are good (male) athletes. That is enough to really change the competitive landscape for girls.
Let's see. There are about 450 high schools in Oregon. So a "handful of kids at every school is like one thousand in the entire state. Are there one thousand trans athletes in Oregon high schools? In all sports, or just in track & field? Why are we not reading about them in Reduxx or Icon Women's Sports twitter (X)? They are fuming over staffs like a water polo player on a college club team or a 22min hobby jogger. If there are one thousand trans athletes in Oregon high schools, at least a small fraction of them should be discussed.
And Washington and California have far more schools than Oregon. So there should be thousands more. Where are they? Are they all going stealth? If so, why have they not been doxxed by the transvestigators?
So my suggestion is that if trans-girls (biological males) want to run with the girls, they need to do so on a non-competitive level. Run a road race as a girl and get 93rd place. Join the JV girls XC team and jog along in the mid-pack with a time of 24:50 or whatever. But you can't show up and dominate others. That is just unfair to girls. You are ruining it for every other girl in the whole league or school or district or whatever.
If I am told that I can run in a race only if I run intentionally slow so that other people will not be offended, I'd rather not enter the race. If I am in a race, I want to challenge myself rather than tanking.
I'd rather be told that I can race as hard as I could, but I would not be eligible for any award. That would be a far better solution.
Instead the actual requirements are in addition to gender identity:
3.2.2 They must not have experienced any part of male puberty either beyond Tanner Stage 2 or after age 12 (whichever comes first).
3.2.3 Since puberty they must have continuously maintained the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L.
3.2.4 They must continue to maintain the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L at all times (i.e., whether they are in competition or out of competition) for so long as they wish to retain eligibility to compete in the female classification at World Rankings Competitions and/or have recognised any World Record performance in the female classification at a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition.
So unless you're arguing that male puberty is something that is unrelated to biology, classifications are not strictly gender classifications.
Most people on this board, including brojos are against this World Athletics policy because it allows some trans women to compete in the women's division. They believe trans women should never be allowed to compete in the women's division even if they have no competitive advantage over cis women.
Aka religion and transphobia, but they will proudly cite “science” and “biology” as if they actually know what that means.
I’d even wager that most of those “most people on this board” wouldn’t hold that transphobic a view if not for the brojos stoking them up.
approx 50% of the country is liberal - look at the votes for the posts - men running womens races isn't a liberal issue. I know I'm liberal. it is the very fringe who insist on asinine points and views that are so incredibly far from common sense
No, it's not the fringe. You are wrong. Completely wrong. The Trans stuff is mainstream liberal now not some hidden away sect of the left.
Fringe stuff doesn't get celebrated by the MSM and pushed. Fringe stuff doesn't get laws passed to protect them.
When you have trans people pulling their fake breasts out at the White House that's not fringe.
When you have MULTIPLE cases of mentally ill men running in women's races that's not fringe.
'Fringe stuff doesn't get laws passed to protect them.'
- you are wrong about this. Fringe stuff frequently becomes law. Two examples 1) abortion 2) prohibition
prohibition was largely a fringe issue that the fringe managed to sneak into law. the over-turning of row v wade is another. the majority of americans support and want roe v wade. And these are major, national issues.
'MULTIPLE cases of mentally ill men running in women's races that's not fringe'
really, wow multiple cases - omg - multiple really, it can't be fringe anymore - there are multiple cases in a country of $300m
All that being said, I don't believe people born a male should be able to compete in women's events - ever. And many liberals believe the same thing.
Are there any other mental giants like you who want to babble on this thread?
So my suggestion is that if trans-girls (biological males) want to run with the girls, they need to do so on a non-competitive level. Run a road race as a girl and get 93rd place. Join the JV girls XC team and jog along in the mid-pack with a time of 24:50 or whatever. But you can't show up and dominate others. That is just unfair to girls. You are ruining it for every other girl in the whole league or school or district or whatever.
If I am told that I can run in a race only if I run intentionally slow so that other people will not be offended, I'd rather not enter the race. If I am in a race, I want to challenge myself rather than tanking.
I'd rather be told that I can race as hard as I could, but I would not be eligible for any award. That would be a far better solution.
But the reason you would, in that scenario, be running the girls race is not for competitive reasons, but as part of your identity. I have no problem with the identity but if you watched the video at the beginning of this thread, you must agree that there was no "competition" there. And there was no "trying to fit in as a girl."
It was a joke. It was a massive blow-out, with the girls so far behind as to be off camera. It was a bad look for liberal minded people who are trying to build a tolerant society. If this is what we are going to see more of, I am out. Watch the video to the end. It was sad (for the girls).
But the reason you would, in that scenario, be running the girls race is not for competitive reasons, but as part of your identity. I have no problem with the identity but if you watched the video at the beginning of this thread, you must agree that there was no "competition" there. And there was no "trying to fit in as a girl."
It was a joke. It was a massive blow-out, with the girls so far behind as to be off camera. It was a bad look for liberal minded people who are trying to build a tolerant society. If this is what we are going to see more of, I am out. Watch the video to the end. It was sad (for the girls).
So you are judging the entire group of people based on the behavior of this one individual? How open-minded is that?
Would you change your mind if the person is "trying to fit in as a girl"? There are many examples of that you can easily find on the net. You just choose not to see because you do not want to see them.
Most people on this board, including brojos are against this World Athletics policy because it allows some trans women to compete in the women's division. They believe trans women should never be allowed to compete in the women's division even if they have no competitive advantage over cis women.
Many people believe the people you call "transwomen" should never be allowed to compete in the women's division simply because they are male. We think all males across the board should be held to the same standards as others of their sex no matter how they say they "identify" and no matter how they style their hair, dress, groom and see/imagine themselves.
As for the matter of competitive advantage: you keep insisting that the special group of males you call "trans" should be allowed to compete in the female category because you claim that if they take certain drugs, such as GnRH analogues and estrogen, and they do so at the right time and for long enough, it means they don't have any unfair advantage because supposedly those "wonder drugs" make all the thousands of physical differences between human males and females that impact sports performance magically disappear.
But you never offer any convincing evidence - or any evidence at all - that what you constantly claim is actually true. You just keep saying it's true over and over again and expecting everyone just to take your word for it.
Sorry, mate, but some people aren't going to believe what you say just because you keep saying it.
Even if this special group of males you think deserve extra entitlements that no other members of the male sex get really didn't have any competitive advantage like you claim: so what?
Girls' and women's sports are for female athletes. Not for male athletes who for one reason or another can't cut it competing gainst their own sex.
Female sports aren't for blokes who have low T, are klutzy, slow and weak, have poor muscle tone, injuries, chronic health conditions like asthma or hemophilia, or disablities. They're for the half of the human race who are female.
This post was edited 14 minutes after it was posted.
Girls' and women's sports are for female athletes. Not for male athletes who for one reason or another can't cut it competing gainst their own sex.
Female sports aren't for blokes who have low T, are klutzy, slow and weak, have poor muscle tone, injuries, chronic health conditions like asthma or hemophilia, or disablities. They're for the half of the human race who are female.
I don’t know what you are smoking, but yes, women’s sport is for females including Transgender Females and intersex females as defined by WA’s eligibility rules.
But you never offer any convincing evidence - or any evidence at all - that what you constantly claim is actually true. You just keep saying it's true over and over again and expecting everyone just to take your word for it.
Statistics 101: you can never "prove" a null hypothesis. By definition, it is impossible to prove one group of people do not have advantage over another group of people.
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.