Restricting people who genuinely identify as women from competing in amateur sports disproportionately harms those people and does not, in any meaningful way, harm the population of people born women who choose to compete, or the people watching them or coaching them.
this is absurd. this is nothing but opinion. the opposite is completely rational and defendable
Allowing people who genuinely identify as women from competing in amateur sports disproportionately harms the other competitors. Women's sports exist to create an equal playing field for those born without the benefit of testerone or other biologically male features. It does not, in any meaningful way harm the population of trans people who are born male but identify as female. They have male sports for which they are welcome to participate.
Finally - if we think about numbers - I would argue this statement is more true. If the winner of women's sports become dominated by a few trans individuals, then all biogical women may suffer. Their own motivation will fall and the whole point of women's sports may be at risk.
You can’t understand proportionality can you? This thread was about a high school meet here nobody involved is elite or close to it. Over the course of their lives the outcome is meaningless. The process to get there isn’t. Being inclusive of someone who will clearly have a more difficult path through life because of people like you and other supposed “liberals” on this thread who want to deny people’s identity, is far more important than a high jump contest. No livelihoods are at stake. Not one. If you want to be angry about the result for more than a few days, more power to you, but that makes for a sad life.
Women’s sports are not going away. They are growing faster than men’s sports. No opinion there, so your hysteria is counterfactual.
You are free to believe what you want. But what you believe in is making life worse for the most vulnerable among us under the guise of “protecting” the sanctity of a truly insignificant portion of a well adjust person’s life.
this is absurd. this is nothing but opinion. the opposite is completely rational and defendable
Allowing people who genuinely identify as women from competing in amateur sports disproportionately harms the other competitors. Women's sports exist to create an equal playing field for those born without the benefit of testerone or other biologically male features. It does not, in any meaningful way harm the population of trans people who are born male but identify as female. They have male sports for which they are welcome to participate.
Finally - if we think about numbers - I would argue this statement is more true. If the winner of women's sports become dominated by a few trans individuals, then all biogical women may suffer. Their own motivation will fall and the whole point of women's sports may be at risk.
You can’t understand proportionality can you? This thread was about a high school meet here nobody involved is elite or close to it. Over the course of their lives the outcome is meaningless. The process to get there isn’t. Being inclusive of someone who will clearly have a more difficult path through life because of people like you and other supposed “liberals” on this thread who want to deny people’s identity, is far more important than a high jump contest. No livelihoods are at stake. Not one. If you want to be angry about the result for more than a few days, more power to you, but that makes for a sad life.
Women’s sports are not going away. They are growing faster than men’s sports. No opinion there, so your hysteria is counterfactual.
You are free to believe what you want. But what you believe in is making life worse for the most vulnerable among us under the guise of “protecting” the sanctity of a truly insignificant portion of a well adjust person’s life.
Who do you deem the most vulnerable among us? I don't have any problem with your opinion but it is just that - you shed no light on the matter except trying to pass off your opinion as if they are factual statements. in your statement here it is a perfect example, you say the most vulnerable among us as if women identifying as men are the most vulnerable among us. Biological women may be the most vulnerable among us. Learn some self-awareness about what is your ego/opinion vs what is reality and others reality.
You can’t understand proportionality can you? This thread was about a high school meet here nobody involved is elite or close to it. Over the course of their lives the outcome is meaningless. The process to get there isn’t. Being inclusive of someone who will clearly have a more difficult path through life because of people like you and other supposed “liberals” on this thread who want to deny people’s identity, is far more important than a high jump contest. No livelihoods are at stake. Not one. If you want to be angry about the result for more than a few days, more power to you, but that makes for a sad life.
Women’s sports are not going away. They are growing faster than men’s sports. No opinion there, so your hysteria is counterfactual.
You are free to believe what you want. But what you believe in is making life worse for the most vulnerable among us under the guise of “protecting” the sanctity of a truly insignificant portion of a well adjust person’s life.
Who do you deem the most vulnerable among us? I don't have any problem with your opinion but it is just that - you shed no light on the matter except trying to pass off your opinion as if they are factual statements. in your statement here it is a perfect example, you say the most vulnerable among us as if women identifying as men are the most vulnerable among us. Biological women may be the most vulnerable among us. Learn some self-awareness about what is your ego/opinion vs what is reality and others reality.
"Women identifying as men" = trans men are biological women.
And I think they are the most vulnerable. Even more so than trans women. They are vulnerable because of their sex at birth and their gender identity. Only the latter applies to trans women.
I guess my point was just that I don't think most people care what you wear to the movies or if you change your name. Nobody cares what pronouns you and your friends use amongst yourselves. If the Right and the Left in this country can agree on one thing, it is the saying, "you do you; it's a free country."
But you can't show up at a girls track meet and dominate the females... That is just inconsiderate and unsportsmanlike.
Mikeh's words which you quoted plainly oppose trans people existing as themselves in any capacity.
A lot of people do, in fact, care very much that trans people be made to suffer.
I don't want anyone to suffer, but I am adamant that my athletic daughters were not put here to be emotional support animals for males with dysphoria or whatever their issue is. This is 100% unfair to girls and women. Because in the end, this is exactly what trans activists are asking.
Mikeh's words which you quoted plainly oppose trans people existing as themselves in any capacity.
A lot of people do, in fact, care very much that trans people be made to suffer.
I don't want anyone to suffer, but I am adamant that my athletic daughters were not put here to be emotional support animals for males with dysphoria or whatever their issue is. This is 100% unfair to girls and women. Because in the end, this is exactly what trans activists are asking.
well said - that, indeed, is not fair to your daughters.
No! Stop using the term "people" and use the term "men." And "boys." This is about men and boys with dysphoria or fetishes forcing women to make room for them in their sports. Girls and women are not nannies and psyche nurses for boys with problems.
Transgirls and transwomen are boys and men for the purpose of sport.
No! Stop using the term "people" and use the term "men." And "boys." This is about men and boys with dysphoria or fetishes forcing women to make room for them in their sports. Girls and women are not nannies and psyche nurses for boys with problems.
Transgirls and transwomen are boys and men for the purpose of sport.
See, this is a clear post outline this persons value systems.
This person is small minded and ignorant, and prefers to demonize an entire class of human beings so maybe, one day, his daughter will be spared the great injustice of finishing one place further back because someone may or may not have a perceived biological advantage that is impossible to quantify. If trans women are not allowed in sport, everything else will always be fair for the rest of every girls life.
My value system says that girls and women deserve every bit of fairness and safety that boys get. Every last bit.
Your value system says that boys and men's feelings are more important than girls and women.
We both know that this discussion is about male bodies and never about female bodies. This is about "transwomen" and never about "transmen." It's all about male rights.
That's your value system. Misogyny. Sexism. Patriarchy.
No! Stop using the term "people" and use the term "men." And "boys." This is about men and boys with dysphoria or fetishes forcing women to make room for them in their sports. Girls and women are not nannies and psyche nurses for boys with problems.
Transgirls and transwomen are boys and men for the purpose of sport.
See, this is a clear post outline this persons value systems.
This person is small minded and ignorant, and prefers to demonize an entire class of human beings so maybe, one day, his daughter will be spared the great injustice of finishing one place further back because someone may or may not have a perceived biological advantage that is impossible to quantify. If trans women are not allowed in sport, everything else will always be fair for the rest of every girls life.
To sum up your point - biological girls should suffer unfairness so trans girls don’t have to.
Tell me why your “life is unfair, too bad” doesn’t apply to trans athletes?
My value system says that girls and women deserve every bit of fairness and safety that boys get. Every last bit.
Your value system says that boys and men's feelings are more important than girls and women.
We both know that this discussion is about male bodies and never about female bodies. This is about "transwomen" and never about "transmen." It's all about male rights.
That's your value system. Misogyny. Sexism. Patriarchy.
Your chief issue is you see fit to define people through your lens and not their own. This isn’t Ladybugs, there is no epidemic of grown men putting on wigs and pummeling young girls. Trans women are women. They deserve all the safety you purport to grant women, but they don’t have it because of people like you. You are explicitly the bigger problem here.
There are a million things that people believe are unfair in the world. Most of us deal with them and move on because we have lives to live. “Unfair” is not unjust. Denying someone’s basic humanity is unjust. Having them compete in an optional activity against someone they are uncomfortable with is not. Children whine about unfairness, adults understand life involves trade offs.
And by the way, you are going to lose. You understand that right? Change is coming, despite how deeply and profoundly uncomfortable you are with it. Doesn’t matter how many screeds you post.
My value system says that girls and women deserve every bit of fairness and safety that boys get. Every last bit.
Your value system says that boys and men's feelings are more important than girls and women.
We both know that this discussion is about male bodies and never about female bodies. This is about "transwomen" and never about "transmen." It's all about male rights.
That's your value system. Misogyny. Sexism. Patriarchy.
Your chief issue is you see fit to define people through your lens and not their own. This isn’t Ladybugs, there is no epidemic of grown men putting on wigs and pummeling young girls. Trans women are women. They deserve all the safety you purport to grant women, but they don’t have it because of people like you. You are explicitly the bigger problem here.
There are a million things that people believe are unfair in the world. Most of us deal with them and move on because we have lives to live. “Unfair” is not unjust. Denying someone’s basic humanity is unjust. Having them compete in an optional activity against someone they are uncomfortable with is not. Children whine about unfairness, adults understand life involves trade offs.
And by the way, you are going to lose. You understand that right? Change is coming, despite how deeply and profoundly uncomfortable you are with it. Doesn’t matter how many screeds you post.
It's really something to see and hear men like you bellow this sort of misogynistic, male supremacist bilge at those who defend the hard-won rights of women and girls:
"And by the way, you are going to lose. You understand that right? Change is coming, despite how deeply and profoundly uncomfortable you are with it. Doesn’t matter how many screeds you post."
And all the while you pretend to occupy the moral high ground and you pat yourself on the back for supposedly being on "the right side of history."
When the reality is your words sound exactly like the sort of thing that the Ayatollah Khomeni told women in Iran in 1979 and the Taliban told women and girls in Afghanistan when the US troops departed!
Owen Jones likes to tell women fighting for their rights "You're going to lose." Kellie-Jay isn't having any of it. #letwomenspeakKellie-Jay's full 'What doe...
My value system says that girls and women deserve every bit of fairness and safety that boys get. Every last bit.
Your value system says that boys and men's feelings are more important than girls and women.
We both know that this discussion is about male bodies and never about female bodies. This is about "transwomen" and never about "transmen." It's all about male rights.
That's your value system. Misogyny. Sexism. Patriarchy.
Your chief issue is you see fit to define people through your lens and not their own. This isn’t Ladybugs, there is no epidemic of grown men putting on wigs and pummeling young girls. Trans women are women. They deserve all the safety you purport to grant women, but they don’t have it because of people like you. You are explicitly the bigger problem here.
There are a million things that people believe are unfair in the world. Most of us deal with them and move on because we have lives to live. “Unfair” is not unjust. Denying someone’s basic humanity is unjust. Having them compete in an optional activity against someone they are uncomfortable with is not. Children whine about unfairness, adults understand life involves trade offs.
And by the way, you are going to lose. You understand that right? Change is coming, despite how deeply and profoundly uncomfortable you are with it. Doesn’t matter how many screeds you post.
Again, Just another fake poster. Ban these anonymous accusatory trolls that damage LR credible discussion.
Your chief issue is you see fit to define people through your lens and not their own. This isn’t Ladybugs, there is no epidemic of grown men putting on wigs and pummeling young girls. Trans women are women. They deserve all the safety you purport to grant women, but they don’t have it because of people like you. You are explicitly the bigger problem here.
There are a million things that people believe are unfair in the world. Most of us deal with them and move on because we have lives to live. “Unfair” is not unjust. Denying someone’s basic humanity is unjust. Having them compete in an optional activity against someone they are uncomfortable with is not. Children whine about unfairness, adults understand life involves trade offs.
And by the way, you are going to lose. You understand that right? Change is coming, despite how deeply and profoundly uncomfortable you are with it. Doesn’t matter how many screeds you post.
Your piety cuts both ways.
As you say above - “Unfair is not unjust. Denying someone’s basic humanity is unjust. Having them compete in an optional activity against someone they are uncomfortable with is not.”
- It’s an optional activity for trans people too
-having them compete in the men’s division may make them feel uncomfortable, but it’s not unjust.
These are your words. See how your argument falls flat.
...is there anyone here who can make a compelling argument for allowing this?
No. Incidentally, the ones who try to do so in the loudest way are usually men themselves. Go figure...
Actually, Millennium and Gen Z women are least likely to oppose this. The most vocal ones on the other side are older men. Older feminists are deeply divided on this issue, and it has jeopardized some decades long friendship among them.
Within the LGBTQ groups, aside from trans people themselves, cis lesbians are most likely to support this. Cis gay men are mostly indifferent because they "hated the gym class." And guess what? Most LGBTQ organizations are dominated by cis gay men. So they were very slow to react to all anti-trans bills on sports.
Read Katie Barnes' "Fair Play." You learn some fascinating dynamics within both feminist and LGBTQ movements.
Your chief issue is you see fit to define people through your lens and not their own. This isn’t Ladybugs, there is no epidemic of grown men putting on wigs and pummeling young girls. Trans women are women. They deserve all the safety you purport to grant women, but they don’t have it because of people like you. You are explicitly the bigger problem here.
There are a million things that people believe are unfair in the world. Most of us deal with them and move on because we have lives to live. “Unfair” is not unjust. Denying someone’s basic humanity is unjust. Having them compete in an optional activity against someone they are uncomfortable with is not. Children whine about unfairness, adults understand life involves trade offs.
And by the way, you are going to lose. You understand that right? Change is coming, despite how deeply and profoundly uncomfortable you are with it. Doesn’t matter how many screeds you post.
Your piety cuts both ways.
As you say above - “Unfair is not unjust. Denying someone’s basic humanity is unjust. Having them compete in an optional activity against someone they are uncomfortable with is not.”
- It’s an optional activity for trans people too
-having them compete in the men’s division may make them feel uncomfortable, but it’s not unjust.
These are your words. See how your argument falls flat.
Trans women are women. You aren’t making an argument just making things up.
As you say above - “Unfair is not unjust. Denying someone’s basic humanity is unjust. Having them compete in an optional activity against someone they are uncomfortable with is not.”
- It’s an optional activity for trans people too
-having them compete in the men’s division may make them feel uncomfortable, but it’s not unjust.
These are your words. See how your argument falls flat.
Trans women are women. You aren’t making an argument just making things up.
So trans men are men right? How does Nikki Hiltz - by your definition a man, have an American Record?
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