I think those situations are slightly different because with those groups (and I would throw Demadonna in there) the group coaches are all part of the "organization". Bol was/is coached by Rinaldi who doesn't really have any affiliation with James, he also would have athletes that were with Bideau, Stubbs, any other agent etc. There are though a few very insular groups where it's all kind of housed under the same umbrella.
Look think about it this way, it actually makes a lot of sense if some sh-t is going on with an athlete, that someone in the athletes circle (coach, agent, PT etc) either legit doesn't know what's going on or deliberately just "hears and sees no evil" and therefore can "speak" no evil, right? If everyone has explicit knowledge then there will almost certainly be a crack or some connecting evidence to complicity. So think about it, if Templeton "doesn't know" he can come out defend his guy and make statements and technically he's not lying.
Now that's not to say these guys aren't stupid - you don't have to be much of a genius to see what's going on when a guy goes from 3.42 to 3.35 or from mid tier international performer to World and Olympic finalist out of nowhere. But these are two different things.
His 800 progression looks completely normal; nothing like that of someone like Sebastian Coe, for example. His 1500 progression MAY be suspicious--or not at all--depending on how often he ran that event and what the winning times were. Abby Steiner just ran a massive PR at 400 meters--but she hadn't run an open 400 in years. Context matters.
I wonder if any athletes that dope actually hold back in races so their improvements don't look too suspicious and their progression is pretty linear and natural. It's very rare for someone in their mid 20s+ to know go from average pro athlete right to the top. That's what did it for LA. Making those mountains look easy which drew the attention of journo - David Walsh.
Looking at his 800 progression, it almost seems illogical that he would dope with such poor return as far as performance goes. Take this gear, you'll knock 1 second off your 800m time and if you get popped your career is over and your reputation is in tatters.... I'd be hitting up the dealer and getting my money back.
This post was edited 49 seconds after it was posted.
Looking at his 800 progression, it almost seems illogical that he would dope with such poor return as far as performance goes. Take this gear, you'll knock 1 second off your 800m time and if you get popped your career is over and your reputation is in tatters.... I'd be hitting up the dealer and getting my money back.
Well when you finish 4th in the Olympics and you are only .86 from Gold every little bit helps. Plus this is a complicated subject because it is possible his stamina had increased and possibly he was slowly losing his peak speed. He is turning 29 in a month. One never knows what benefit he precisely may have received, and whether that could have been somewhat negated by the potential anxiety about cheating/getting caught (assuming he was doping).
Looking at his 800 progression, it almost seems illogical that he would dope with such poor return as far as performance goes. Take this gear, you'll knock 1 second off your 800m time and if you get popped your career is over and your reputation is in tatters.... I'd be hitting up the dealer and getting my money back.
Well when you finish 4th in the Olympics and you are only .86 from Gold every little bit helps. Plus this is a complicated subject because it is possible his stamina had increased and possibly he was slowly losing his peak speed. He is turning 29 in a month. One never knows what benefit he precisely may have received, and whether that could have been somewhat negated by the potential anxiety about cheating/getting caught (assuming he was doping).
Yup true. 0.5s improvement in 5 years - kinda doesn't seem worth the risk, but then I'm not in his position.
sorry, i missed it was out of comp. makes no odds.
and i still dont see why a modern lab cant do the tests quickly. oftyen one test does many substances.
and, sorry, once its in their blood, and the b test confirms, that is a fact and the public need to know. anything else is just supporting dopers.
Well if you can't see why a modern lab can't do that, feel free to go build a modern lab that can
but 'i' already have! the lab i use in shanghai employs 10 000 people. no matter what tests i ask, the standard service gets me the full report in 5 working days. no reason that lab couldnt do me a two day turnaround if i paid for it.
Well if you can't see why a modern lab can't do that, feel free to go build a modern lab that can
but 'i' already have! the lab i use in shanghai employs 10 000 people. no matter what tests i ask, the standard service gets me the full report in 5 working days. no reason that lab couldnt do me a two day turnaround if i paid for it.
There are labs with 10 000 employees? A pharmaceutical production facility could be that big, but not a single analysis lab. I don’t work in bioanalytical chemistry so I wouldn’t know how long their analysis take, but in environmental analysis (where I work) it can take up to a week to have results if you include sample preparation, extraction, analysis and interpretation. So it’s not far fetched to think they need at least a few days to have results from the B sample.
Yeah I went through and looked at his progression over the years for multiple events and couldn't see any red flags for the 800m. Only the 1500m which isn't his event. I'm generally of the opinion anyone that gets popped with their A sample is probably guilty. But I do like to look at their performances over the years and see if there is any obvious improvements in performance. I think Lamont Jacobs is a classic example.I had a look at his stats and he went from 400th in the world for the 100m to Olympic champion in a pretty short space of time.
We don't know when he started doping. Could have been 10 years ago, or a week before the positive test.
We also don't know when he found the right mixture that worked well yet didn't lead to a positive test (until he slipped or got too greedy). He could have simply been increasing the amount gently over the years. Etc. etc. etc.
But he was a lot more successfully in 2021 and 2022 than ever before. That was in slow races, meaning we don't know how much he improved at age 27 as an 800 m runner.
Don't worry guys, Deng can have all the EPO that was marked for Bol, and he-ll be running sub 1:44 this summer - living proof that East Africans have those special natural born runner genes. Remember, they only dope to compete with each other.
All you progression sleuths are completely missing the point. It’s not the progression that raises the red flags on doping. It’s the SYNTHETIC EPO found in his blood stream. Let’s hope this was some historical eff up by the doping authorities, but if that B comes back +, Bol cheated and lied and he should be banned for life. Synthetic EPO gets into the blood stream by only one means.
Don't worry guys, Deng can have all the EPO that was marked for Bol, and he-ll be running sub 1:44 this summer - living proof that East Africans have those special natural born runner genes. Remember, they only dope to compete with each other.
Not sure of the straw man being brought up here. Nobody considered Deng/Bol particularly talented. Being 1:44 guys in their mid-20s, working years to get there is not a sign of much talent besides perseverance.
Big 800 talents: Brazier, Burgin, Noah Kibet, Emmanuel Korir, Keely, Mu. These are athletes who after 2 years or fewer of structured, professionalized training go under 1:45 or 1:44 or 1:59. Some of these athletes are African, some aren’t.
All you progression sleuths are completely missing the point. It’s not the progression that raises the red flags on doping. It’s the SYNTHETIC EPO found in his blood stream. Let’s hope this was some historical eff up by the doping authorities, but if that B comes back +, Bol cheated and lied and he should be banned for life. Synthetic EPO gets into the blood stream by only one means.
We are not "progression sleuths" at all. Some poster early in this thread suggested that Bol's progression to be suspicious and we merely pointed out that it was not at all unusual. In fact, he has only dropped from 1:45 high to 1:44 low in 7 years. That is basically a plateau...
If you read our posts, we agree about how sus the EPO is. We know you can't "ingest it on accident" or whatever.
He was just playing the game,and doping like literally everyone else at top leval does.Its not just russia that dopes.What works well for russia,also works well for usa,britain,australia,and lots of other countries.
We are not "progression sleuths" at all. Some poster early in this thread suggested that Bol's progression to be suspicious and we merely pointed out that it was not at all unusual. In fact, he has only dropped from 1:45 high to 1:44 low in 7 years. That is basically a plateau...
If you read our posts, we agree about how sus the EPO is. We know you can't "ingest it on accident" or whatever.
You’re underselling it a bit. He went from guy who couldn’t make the final to withstanding the rounds and being a contender in the final. The 1500 PB was nice. Clearly he advanced nicely even if his PB is modest at 800. Not saying red flags but to say he’s the same guy as even in 2018-19 is wrong.
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