Former Coach wrote:
REMOVE THIS THREAD. Quit throwing a great person under the bus.
I agree. I dont understand what the problem is, except that the lead guide took them off course. The rabid internet lynch mob is thirsting for blood and won't be satisfied.
What the F was the guy supposed to do. Not continue running? It cracks me up on this forum when Rojo has an evangelical view on something.
The guy wasn't that far back and might have won the race anyway.
llort_vbo wrote:
surveysays wrote:
Not only are you wrong about the size of races I've run, as it ranges from BFE to Berlin, but I've even done THIS EXACT RACE.
Which of my 3 points did you take issue with? All you did in your response was go on a tangent about when you should help another runner and complain that rojo rained on the parade of a prick.
I'm sorry, I responded to you as if you had the reading comprehension skills of an adult. My bad.
So, mr big time racer, when you're at these races, have you ever yelled at someone 100m ahead of you and communicated effectively? (I was addressing point 1 here). Of course, you'll say yes, but I call bs.
It is not the responsibility of a race participant to exert any effort on behalf of any other competitor unless it's a safety issue. I think the question of whether or not one perceives it to be exhausting is patently absurd on its face. (That's your point 2). I also think judging someone by their reactions 30k into a marathon is d!ckish and stupid. You're going to tell me you've never felt like crap at some point in a race but still have run well?
My default response to newspaper quotations is skepticism. I didn't address your point 3 because you seem mad about something and apparently are projecting it on to this guy. I'm assuming that you're jealous because you can't run 2:15, he took your girl/guy, or you're a mealy-mouthed type who doesn't like winners, etc.
As an aside, I've been interviewed by trade publications, regional newspapers, and public tv about matters of science and technology and never once did they quote me right. They extrapolated, hyperbolized, and just flat out got stuff wrong. It happens. They are not in the truth biz, they're trying to get your eyes on ads or whatever generates revenue for them.
No, I've never yelled at someone 100m in front of me in a race. Yes, I've heard someone from 100m away before while running.
People had claimed that it would be too exhausting for Pence to yell, which is why I listed that point and laughed at the notion.
Things I'm not buying:
1) That it's impossible to hear someone yelling 100m away during a race.
2) That it's exhausting for a 2:15 guy to yell "HEY!" a couple times.
3) Most of all, that his response to what happened was anything less than being a prick.
llort_vbo wrote:
malmo wrote:
Really? I've never heard anyone yelling during a race, and I've always found it odd that coaches do it, because it's such a waste. Well... that's not quite true. I remember a coach shouting at his guy to "use your 1:46 speed on those guys!" That didn't work out very well.
Watching other people race is frustrating and I think that's why coaches yell.
Also, I like how Rojo is apparently ignorant of the dimensions of a track. The furthest away that you're yelling is probably 90m.
I think his argument is if he can be heard from 90m, the third place runner might have been able to make himself heard from a similar distance.
As others have observed, runners expecting to hear their splits shouted out are listening specifically for this, whereas the lead runners in a race aren't expecting to hear directions from roughly 100m back. Also, a coach who isn't exerted himself can more easily shout. There might also be other noise which makes it harder to hear. I've never been in this situation, but I don't think I'd be much good at shouting in the middle of a race.
Supralapsarian wrote:
malmo wrote:
I think we all understand the dimensions of a running track -- and so does rojo.
Then please demonstrate to me how he is 200m away from a runner when on the track? Even if he is lazy and standing in the corner, and his runner is completely in the other corner, that is about 120m tops. If he is in the center, he is about 65m tops.
The only way he is 200m is if he is in the parking lot yelling at his runners.
Where did he say that he was 200m away? Hint: he didn't.
How do the people defending Pence feel about Chelimo's lane 3-4 move?
I'm fine with both.
under a bridge wrote:
How do the people defending Pence feel about Chelimo's lane 3-4 move?
I'm fine with both.
Love Chelimo, races like a boss.
Drew Peacock wrote:
I think his argument is if he can be heard from 90m, the third place runner might have been able to make himself heard from a similar distance.
As others have observed, runners expecting to hear their splits shouted out are listening specifically for this, whereas the lead runners in a race aren't expecting to hear directions from roughly 100m back. Also, a coach who isn't exerted himself can more easily shout. There might also be other noise which makes it harder to hear. I've never been in this situation, but I don't think I'd be much good at shouting in the middle of a race.
@surveysays - Earlier in the thread, Rojo said his runners could hear him 200m away. The implication is clear. I assumed he’s talking about runners on the track as yelling at runners on an XC/road course from 200m away is kind of stupid and unnecessary.
@mrpeacock - I understand his argument, but I think it’s misplaced and flawed for the following reasons.
1) Mr. Pence’s estimate of how far he was away he is could be off.
2) As you note, it’s one thing to yell from one side of a track to another, but it’s an entirely different thing to yell in the street with potentially higher ambient noises. Not to mention the fact that in marathon race somewhere near 25-30k I wouldn’t be listening for people yelling at me.
3) The exertion level is immaterial to me. I think that’s a canard.
Finally, Mr. Pence made an easily falsifiable statement to the effect that he told a different race official that the runners were being led off course. Has the race commented on this? If he did in fact do this, then all you bloviating morons have no leg to stand on.
llort_vbo wrote:
@surveysays - Earlier in the thread, Rojo said his runners could hear him 200m away. The implication is clear. I assumed he’s talking about runners on the track as yelling at runners on an XC/road course from 200m away is kind of stupid and unnecessary.
Unless I missed it, he only said that he was yelling splits to them at the 200m mark. This is not the same as claiming that "his runners could hear him 200m away".
It is ridiculous to blame the guy who won the race because he didn’t shout anything when the two runners in front of his went the wrong way on the course. It wasn’t his responsibility to do this. This is more of an issue with either a poorly marked course or an untrained course guide who didn’t know the course and should not have been in that position.
Hmmm - you may be right.
What do you think about him telling a race official that the lead runners were being taken off course?
If he can be shown to have done that, will that get you to douse the torches and put away the pitchfork?
under a bridge wrote:
How do the people defending Pence feel about Chelimo's lane 3-4 move?
I'm fine with both.
How exactly is obstructing the path of a fellow runner even in the same ballpark as not saying anything when a competitor runs in the wrong direction??
I've met Elijah. Nice young guy, but far from a "world-class" runner. He ran just under 50 minutes at Cherry Blossom. Not diminishing him, as he's young and with potential. Just stating the obvious,
Not his responsibility wrote:
under a bridge wrote:
How do the people defending Pence feel about Chelimo's lane 3-4 move?
I'm fine with both.
How exactly is obstructing the path of a fellow runner even in the same ballpark as not saying anything when a competitor runs in the wrong direction??
It’s not Chelimo’s responsibility to let other runners pass.
llort_vbo wrote:
@surveysays - Earlier in the thread, Rojo said his runners could hear him 200m away. The implication is clear. I assumed he’s talking about runners on the track as yelling at runners on an XC/road course from 200m away is kind of stupid and unnecessary.
.
Only rojo DID NOT say that. What rojo said was "my runners could hear me yelling splits to the 200 meter mark when I was coaching.". That's easy to understand. It doesn't mean "200m away".
As it was not the Kenyans' fault, in the sense that they followed the bike volunteer, it's very good and just of the race director to give them prize money at that level, and not only would I have tried to alert them--although 20 seconds ahead is far enough (over 100m) that they probably wouldn't have heard anyway--but I have alerted competitors about to take a wrong turn in races where I was close to the lead and some small amount of prizes or money were at stake, and re-directed them even though they may have gone on to beat me.
Another point, though, is that runners do have a responsibility to study the course map and run the right course. It's one of those necessary conditions. If they ring the bell at the wrong time in a 1500m, you have to know it's wrong and not launch into a kick.
Drew Peacock wrote:
...
I think his argument is if he can be heard from 90m, the third place runner might have been able to make himself heard from a similar distance.
As others have observed, runners expecting to hear their splits shouted out are listening specifically for this, whereas the lead runners in a race aren't expecting to hear directions from roughly 100m back. Also, a coach who isn't exerted himself can more easily shout. There might also be other noise which makes it harder to hear. I've never been in this situation, but I don't think I'd be much good at shouting in the middle of a race.
I've been in this situation multiple times, yelling at the lead runner or runners to turn back.
It does not work from 100m. It is fairly unlikely to work from 50m.
I have had success a couple times, but only when they're close or know my voice.
I've had one guy after the race (in which he got DQ'd) tell me, "I heard you, but I didn't turn around.". Well, I think we all know whose fault that is.
know the truth wrote:
https://www.channel1450.com/2021/09/29/the-download-with-dp-emergency-episode-pence-talks-quad-cities-marathon-win-and-backlash/?fbclid=IwAR1FUGELY0oxxUWAjXwVl5cRbDyywhrubbhSd_XFfoIw9G6cpq_lv8JlqT8Please give this a listen before you continue to bash an incredible person and athlete
If you've been posting on this thread, I'd recommend listening to this podcast interview with the winner. The guy doing the interview admits he's a friend of the winner, so it's not exactly unbiased. But important to remember that we're talking about a human being here who is well aware of the discussion surrounding this race.
I doubt any opinion I share will change anyone's minds, but a few things worth noting.
-His quote in the QC Times wasn't great. "I was about 20 seconds back so I kind of saw it happening, I'm not going to shout. It's not my job." He's right that it's not his job. And you can question whether someone who was 20 secs behind would have been able to have made themselves heard. But the quote makes it sound as if he chose not to shout because it wasn't his job to shout, not because he couldn't be heard (on the podcast, he says shouting would have been useless as he was too far back). Because of that, and the way Rojo relayed the story, I said on the LRC podcast (recorded Wednesday morning) that this was an example of poor sportsmanship.
-That said, it's important to note that the winner says in the podcast that he did tell someone. He said there was a lead biker with the two leaders and then another biker riding next to him. He says he told the biker next to him that the guys ahead were making a wrong turn. At that point, I think it's the biker's responsibility to book it and catch up to the leaders and get them to correct their error. The winner let a race official (who was actually in position to do something about it) know about it. So to endlessly bash the guy for not saying anything...at this point, I think it's unwarranted.
-If you're next to someone or 5 seconds behind, I think the situation is clear: if someone runs off course, it's poor sportsmanship not to yell out to them. The complicating factor here is that he was close enough to maybe be heard but not far enough away that you could definitively say they wouldn't have heard him.
Jonathan Gault wrote:
-That said, it's important to note that the winner says in the podcast that he did tell someone. He said there was a lead biker with the two leaders and then another biker riding next to him. He says he told the biker next to him that the guys ahead were making a wrong turn. At that point, I think it's the biker's responsibility to book it and catch up to the leaders and get them to correct their error. The winner let a race official (who was actually in position to do something about it) know about it. So to endlessly bash the guy for not saying anything...at this point, I think it's unwarranted.
As previously mentioned, the fcuk up is down to the two bikers, not saying the hounds should now be let loose on them, but I am saying it's not down to Pence, so stop heaping shít on to him.