RegionalAtBest wrote:
The whole thing reminded me of the Barry Bonds /Mark McGwire situation in baseball. Completely unbelievable from the start, but unchecked by the league.
Don't forget Sammy Sooser!!
https://youtu.be/AggeSjZwx6sRegionalAtBest wrote:
The whole thing reminded me of the Barry Bonds /Mark McGwire situation in baseball. Completely unbelievable from the start, but unchecked by the league.
Don't forget Sammy Sooser!!
https://youtu.be/AggeSjZwx6sCoyote Montane wrote:
YMMV wrote:
I tend to agree, but it also really looks like both Kevin and Eddy H, and definitely some foreign (*cough* Russian*cough*) runners on the road circuit in years past were after the cash as well. I never won any $ as a master ( a few medals and prizes) but I would be i favor of ending prize money.
Sorry about the glitch above. too bad this place doesn't have an edit function.
Elite masters in the 40-45 age group, sometimes a few years past that, can make some okay money on the road circuit, enough to make a living if they race and win a lot. Get older than 45-50 and only USATF offers some money at championships, on a good day it's enough to pay for your trip, or maybe part of it. So it's not a lot of money.
Agreed with Coyote. There are very few masters runners, if any, who are doing this for the money. Almost all of the top masters runners in America are regular people, with regular jobs, with decent salaries (or retirement incomes), who would show up to the same races whether they offered prize money or not. Sure the occasional money makes for a nice perk, and sometimes offsets a portion - or in a rare best case, all - of the expenses to get to a race. But nobody is making more than pocket change, relatively speaking, from these races.
YMMV wrote:
darkwave wrote:
That's assuming that prize money is the primary incentive for masters doping.
It may be in some cases, but likely not in most.
My suspicion is that the majority of masters runners who are not playing by the rules are not doing it for money, or even for the winning. As you get older, those anti-aging clinics get more tempting - pay some money and get some pills and you'll feel and recover like you were in your twenties again. You'll be able to do 3 hard workouts a week and run faster than is ideal on your easy days and get away with it. You'll be able to go out on Friday night AND do the Saturday long run AND go out Saturday night.
The promise of returning to how you felt and what you could get away with in your 20s and even 30s is the motivation. The winning and the prize money are nice too (and not unimportant) but secondary.
And that makes it even easier to rationalize - because you're not taking that stuff with the goal of winning (because that's what cheaters do), but because a doctor prescribed it and it makes you feel better (and you just happen to win because you feel better). Sure, it's banned, but you're over 40 and a doctor told you to take it, so it must be OK. (or alternately, you choose to be ignorant of the USADA rules and assume they don't apply to you, because you're not a cheater).
That's how I believe the mindset works, extrapolating from my experience investigating misconduct in other areas. The number of people in this world who make bad choices and do bad things vastly outnumbers the number of people who think they are doing bad things or making bad choices. And I'm sure that the number of masters runners who are violating the USADA rules vastly outnumbers the number of masters runners who believe they are doing something wrong.
I tend to agree, but it also really looks like both Kevin and Eddy H, and definitely some foreign (*cough* Russian*cough*) runners on the road circuit in years past were after the cash as well. I never won any $ as a master ( a few medals and prizes) but I would be i favor of ending prize money.
I got an interesting email from the USATF MLDR, I'm sure many on here have seen it:
July 17, 2020 INDIANAPOLIS IN Pursuant to the USADA (U.S. Anti-doping Agency) sanction accepted by Kevin Castille based on a positive sample collected at the 2019 USATF Masters 10K Championship, he has been disqualified from that Championship. For details, see here. The Masters LDR Committee is therefore announcing the following adjusted results for the Men’s Race:
AGE GRADED 1. Ken Youngers 62 36:19 92.02% $500, 2. Andy Gardiner 53 33.44 91.36% $400, 3. Norm Larson 63 37:13 90.63% $300, 4. John Barbour 65 38:39 88.95% $200, 5. Mark Reeder 59 36:46 88.40% $150, 6 & 7 (tie) John Sullivan 58 36:28 88.32% $112.50 and Tim Van Orden 50 34:01 88.32% $112.50.
Each of the first three runners, Youngers, Gardiner, and Larson, will receive an upgraded medal for Gold, Silver, and Bronze respectively. All seven runners will receive higher checks than previously anticipated; this higher amount is listed after each runner’s name.
AGE DIVISION M45 1. Brian Sydow 33:37 $100, 2. Chris Georgules 33:49, 3. Donal O’Sullivan 33:58.
Sydow, Georgules, and O’Sullivan will receive a Gold, Silver, and Bronze medal respectively. Sydow will receive a $100 check for winning the division.
OVERALL 1. Eric Blake 32:17 $300, 2. David Angell 32:22 $200, 3. Brendan Prindiville 33:14 $100.
Blake, Angell, and Prindiville will now receive a Gold, Silver, and Bronze medal respectively. They will receive the appropriate prize money listed after each name and time.
The results are being edited to reflect the DQ and movement of all other runners to a higher finishing place. These new results will replace the ones that are currently posted at usatf.org. Checks will be sent out immediately by the Race Director of the James Joyce Ramble, Martin Hanley. New medals will be ordered and shipped soon thereafter.
The Committee applauds these performances and encourages all who know these swift runners to congratulate them on their fine accomplishment, now fully recognized.
Mary Rosado, Masters LDR Chair, observed that “The goal of anti-doping testing is to ensure a clean sport where the athletes who earn their way to the top get the recognition they deserve. The actions taken today are consistent with that aim.” Drug testing will continue to be a part of Masters competition; the Committee urges all athletes to familiarize themselves with USADA rules, regulations, and procedures by consulting Anti-Doping 101.
I don't like doping and cheating yet I know there's not much to effectively be done by the athletes, as has been pointed out already on this thread. Look at how senior athletes get screwed by dopers and Usada/Wada's lax policing; no end of outcry has led to little improvement in preventing doping. At any rate, I feel that the biggest shame and tip-off of Castille's shenanigans was that he never built anything beyond his own performances. He didn't give back and attract a group of LA (or TN) runners around him to train and compete as a team, his was a largely (if not exclusively) self-centered endeavor. There might be some headaches in the organizing and politics, yet my most meaningful experience as a post-collegiate runner has been to travel with a local team to compete. Anything else I've managed (1st marathon, marathon PR, etc.) doesn't come close to the enjoyment and satisfaction I had in the company of kindred spirits, to notably include Coyote Montane. So maybe team-only prize money is a better allocation by USATF?
Evan Jogger wrote:
YMMV wrote:
I tend to agree, but it also really looks like both Kevin and Eddy H, and definitely some foreign (*cough* Russian*cough*) runners on the road circuit in years past were after the cash as well. I never won any $ as a master ( a few medals and prizes) but I would be i favor of ending prize money.
I got an interesting email from the USATF MLDR, I'm sure many on here have seen it:
July 17, 2020 INDIANAPOLIS IN Pursuant to the USADA (U.S. Anti-doping Agency) sanction accepted by Kevin Castille based on a positive sample collected at the 2019 USATF Masters 10K Championship, he has been disqualified from that Championship. For details, see here. The Masters LDR Committee is therefore announcing the following adjusted results for the Men’s Race:
AGE GRADED 1. Ken Youngers 62 36:19 92.02% $500, 2. Andy Gardiner 53 33.44 91.36% $400, 3. Norm Larson 63 37:13 90.63% $300, 4. John Barbour 65 38:39 88.95% $200, 5. Mark Reeder 59 36:46 88.40% $150, 6 & 7 (tie) John Sullivan 58 36:28 88.32% $112.50 and Tim Van Orden 50 34:01 88.32% $112.50.
Each of the first three runners, Youngers, Gardiner, and Larson, will receive an upgraded medal for Gold, Silver, and Bronze respectively. All seven runners will receive higher checks than previously anticipated; this higher amount is listed after each runner’s name.
AGE DIVISION M45 1. Brian Sydow 33:37 $100, 2. Chris Georgules 33:49, 3. Donal O’Sullivan 33:58.
Sydow, Georgules, and O’Sullivan will receive a Gold, Silver, and Bronze medal respectively. Sydow will receive a $100 check for winning the division.
OVERALL 1. Eric Blake 32:17 $300, 2. David Angell 32:22 $200, 3. Brendan Prindiville 33:14 $100.
Blake, Angell, and Prindiville will now receive a Gold, Silver, and Bronze medal respectively. They will receive the appropriate prize money listed after each name and time.
The results are being edited to reflect the DQ and movement of all other runners to a higher finishing place. These new results will replace the ones that are currently posted at usatf.org. Checks will be sent out immediately by the Race Director of the James Joyce Ramble, Martin Hanley. New medals will be ordered and shipped soon thereafter.
The Committee applauds these performances and encourages all who know these swift runners to congratulate them on their fine accomplishment, now fully recognized.
Mary Rosado, Masters LDR Chair, observed that “The goal of anti-doping testing is to ensure a clean sport where the athletes who earn their way to the top get the recognition they deserve. The actions taken today are consistent with that aim.” Drug testing will continue to be a part of Masters competition; the Committee urges all athletes to familiarize themselves with USADA rules, regulations, and procedures by consulting Anti-Doping 101.
I don't like doping and cheating yet I know there's not much to effectively be done by the athletes, as has been pointed out already on this thread. Look at how senior athletes get screwed by dopers and Usada/Wada's lax policing; no end of outcry has led to little improvement in preventing doping. At any rate, I feel that the biggest shame and tip-off of Castille's shenanigans was that he never built anything beyond his own performances. He didn't give back and attract a group of LA (or TN) runners around him to train and compete as a team, his was a largely (if not exclusively) self-centered endeavor. There might be some headaches in the organizing and politics, yet my most meaningful experience as a post-collegiate runner has been to travel with a local team to compete. Anything else I've managed (1st marathon, marathon PR, etc.) doesn't come close to the enjoyment and satisfaction I had in the company of kindred spirits, to notably include Coyote Montane. So maybe team-only prize money is a better allocation by USATF?
Team only money sounds like a good solution. Also, kudos for your handle.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. If you claim "drugs!" about every single high-performing racer, you're bound to be right once in a while.
socalcush wrote:
Sprintgeezer wrote:
Yeah, don’t speak your mind and start a rational discussion, even if there is ample evidence and you are articulate.
/sarc
the problem is, "ample evidence" means something different to different people. until dudes like castille are caught, i don't think there was ample evidence, just suspicions and speculation.
I was speaking in a general sense, not with reference to your knowledge of Castille specifically.
Bear in mind that there are those who know more about him than do you. Users always leave tracks, and there is always evidence.
Charlie wrote:
If some old roid raging geezer comes flying by ya just turn is arse in:
https://ufc.usada.org/resources/playclean/2019 stats for play clean:
533 calls produced 70 targeted tests resulting in 4 violations and 3 sanctions
In other words, USADA only followed up on 13% of tips. Granted, there might have been multiple calls about the same athlete, but, still, I feel like that number should be way higher. ?
Related to the USATF email, wonder why they have the RD distribute the prize money since I assume this is USATF funds?
Evan Jogger wrote:
YMMV wrote:
I tend to agree, but it also really looks like both Kevin and Eddy H, and definitely some foreign (*cough* Russian*cough*) runners on the road circuit in years past were after the cash as well. I never won any $ as a master ( a few medals and prizes) but I would be i favor of ending prize money.
I got an interesting email from the USATF MLDR, I'm sure many on here have seen it:
July 17, 2020 INDIANAPOLIS IN Pursuant to the USADA (U.S. Anti-doping Agency) sanction accepted by Kevin Castille based on a positive sample collected at the 2019 USATF Masters 10K Championship, he has been disqualified from that Championship. For details, see here. The Masters LDR Committee is therefore announcing the following adjusted results for the Men’s Race:
AGE GRADED 1. Ken Youngers 62 36:19 92.02% $500, 2. Andy Gardiner 53 33.44 91.36% $400, 3. Norm Larson 63 37:13 90.63% $300, 4. John Barbour 65 38:39 88.95% $200, 5. Mark Reeder 59 36:46 88.40% $150, 6 & 7 (tie) John Sullivan 58 36:28 88.32% $112.50 and Tim Van Orden 50 34:01 88.32% $112.50.
Each of the first three runners, Youngers, Gardiner, and Larson, will receive an upgraded medal for Gold, Silver, and Bronze respectively. All seven runners will receive higher checks than previously anticipated; this higher amount is listed after each runner’s name.
AGE DIVISION M45 1. Brian Sydow 33:37 $100, 2. Chris Georgules 33:49, 3. Donal O’Sullivan 33:58.
Sydow, Georgules, and O’Sullivan will receive a Gold, Silver, and Bronze medal respectively. Sydow will receive a $100 check for winning the division.
OVERALL 1. Eric Blake 32:17 $300, 2. David Angell 32:22 $200, 3. Brendan Prindiville 33:14 $100.
Blake, Angell, and Prindiville will now receive a Gold, Silver, and Bronze medal respectively. They will receive the appropriate prize money listed after each name and time.
The results are being edited to reflect the DQ and movement of all other runners to a higher finishing place. These new results will replace the ones that are currently posted at usatf.org. Checks will be sent out immediately by the Race Director of the James Joyce Ramble, Martin Hanley. New medals will be ordered and shipped soon thereafter.
The Committee applauds these performances and encourages all who know these swift runners to congratulate them on their fine accomplishment, now fully recognized.
Mary Rosado, Masters LDR Chair, observed that “The goal of anti-doping testing is to ensure a clean sport where the athletes who earn their way to the top get the recognition they deserve. The actions taken today are consistent with that aim.” Drug testing will continue to be a part of Masters competition; the Committee urges all athletes to familiarize themselves with USADA rules, regulations, and procedures by consulting Anti-Doping 101.
I don't like doping and cheating yet I know there's not much to effectively be done by the athletes, as has been pointed out already on this thread. Look at how senior athletes get screwed by dopers and Usada/Wada's lax policing; no end of outcry has led to little improvement in preventing doping. At any rate, I feel that the biggest shame and tip-off of Castille's shenanigans was that he never built anything beyond his own performances. He didn't give back and attract a group of LA (or TN) runners around him to train and compete as a team, his was a largely (if not exclusively) self-centered endeavor. There might be some headaches in the organizing and politics, yet my most meaningful experience as a post-collegiate runner has been to travel with a local team to compete. Anything else I've managed (1st marathon, marathon PR, etc.) doesn't come close to the enjoyment and satisfaction I had in the company of kindred spirits, to notably include Coyote Montane. So maybe team-only prize money is a better allocation by USATF?
Hi EvanJ, I agree.
I'd like to see more testing--with those at record-setting levels getting random as well as in-competition testing. And more testing at races. Big money/mega events like Boston, NYC, Chicago need to test masters podium finishers. Might be hard for all age groups, but at least the money earners, and if someone sets a national record get the testers on it as soon as they can like within a few days after the event, if not day of.
USATF sent out a questionnaire last year and it had a section on prize money, and I agree that more should go to the teams to promote the team aspect. Go at least 3 deep (instead of 2) for road championships and 5 or 6 deep for Club XC.
Would also like to see lifetime ban for PEDs like steroids and EPO.
New article here with quotes from Castille.
As much as I think doping completely ruins this sport, I also can see the perspective of Castille, who likely struggled getting work after being in prison. I'm not defending him -- he (very likely) made the choice to dope, and now he's living with the consequences. Had he taken a different route, such as taking a low-paying job and competing while clean, he'd be much better off now. Hopefully that's the path he chooses moving forward.
But if your two choices are doing something like throwing packages around for Amazon at a low hourly rate vs. racing for prize money, it's not difficult to understand why someone would play with fire to gamble on the latter option. I think a lot of people would have made the same decisions when put in a similar situation.
Anyway, I do hope he returns to the roads after completing the suspension, competing as a clean athlete. This community should be a place where everyone is welcome -- past mistakes and all.
runharwell wrote:
Anyway, I do hope he returns to the roads after completing the suspension, competing as a clean athlete. This community should be a place where everyone is welcome -- past mistakes and all.
If we wants to be welcomed back by the running community after he's served his suspension, he could start by dropping the b.s. story about not knowing how the steroids ended up in his body, and come clean, confess, lay out the whole story, and ask for forgiveness by those he cheated. And of course pay back all his ill-gotten prize money to the people who truly deserved it.
Rambling Curiosity wrote:
Related to the USATF email, wonder why they have the RD distribute the prize money since I assume this is USATF funds?
Masters Championship prize money is provided by the event.
Can we give Steve Moneghetti his world records back?
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