This thread was deleted by a volunteer moderator. I certainly don't want a thread this big deleted so I've restored. THat being said, this thread has served it's purpose. I've closed it to new posts.
We have a new 2024 vaccine thread here. New people don't need to try to wade through 20,000 posts to figure out what is going on.
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fisky wrote:
Monkeys Skyping wrote:
Totally agree about the tennis rabbit hole that's been going on here for the past few weeks.
I'm curious how you stumbled upon the OECD data for excess deaths. That is, I'm guessing you found it on somebody's blog or some such and I'm interested in who is originating these sort of narratives and how they propagate through social media.
To be blunt, I'm trying to wrap my head around why there is widespread distrust of the historically most plausible sources of expertise (e.g. the CDC) and how that trust gets transferred to sources with, generally, an objectively poor record of being trustworthy.
I did a search on Bing Copilot and ChatGPT, but I couldn't find data showing what I was looking for. Then, searched on Google for "excess death rate us by month". One of the links on the first page of links was to this OECD page. I then had to select United States for country and for variables, I chose excess deaths and Covid-19 deaths. For week 1, the difference was 5,000, week 2: about 2,000, week three: about 1,500 and so on. Just eyeballing the data, it appeared that there were around 3,000-4,000 non-covid excess deaths each week in 2023.
To be blunt, the CDC has lost a lot of credibility throughout the Covid pandemic. The CDC was constantly behind the power curve in 2020, gave out a lot conflicting information, and Walensky came across as incompetent in the May 2021 Congressional hearings when she claimed that she didn't know how many OF HER OWN EMPLOYEES had been vaccinated. (This was one month after Pres. Biden had announced a national push to get everyone vaccinated.)
37% of Americans do not trust the CDC, according to recent poll.
But you understand why, in this case, the CDC date are clearly better?
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Harambe wrote:
fisky wrote:
I did a search on Bing Copilot and ChatGPT, but I couldn't find data showing what I was looking for. Then, searched on Google for "excess death rate us by month". One of the links on the first page of links was to this OECD page. I then had to select United States for country and for variables, I chose excess deaths and Covid-19 deaths. For week 1, the difference was 5,000, week 2: about 2,000, week three: about 1,500 and so on. Just eyeballing the data, it appeared that there were around 3,000-4,000 non-covid excess deaths each week in 2023.
To be blunt, the CDC has lost a lot of credibility throughout the Covid pandemic. The CDC was constantly behind the power curve in 2020, gave out a lot conflicting information, and Walensky came across as incompetent in the May 2021 Congressional hearings when she claimed that she didn't know how many OF HER OWN EMPLOYEES had been vaccinated. (This was one month after Pres. Biden had announced a national push to get everyone vaccinated.)
37% of Americans do not trust the CDC, according to recent poll.
But you understand why, in this case, the CDC date are clearly better?
The CDC directors lack of knowledge about employees medical history means their decades and verifiable old death counting methods were suddenly wrong this year!
Some people just want to be wrong.
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fisky wrote:
. . .
37% of Americans do not trust the CDC, according to recent poll.
That's kind of my point.
The question then is what source do these persons find trustworthy and is that source truly worthy of their trust.
The internet has made it possible to find attractively packaged support for just about any viewpoint and a great deal of it is rubbish.
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2600 bro wrote:
The CDC directors lack of knowledge about employees medical history means their decades and verifiable old death counting methods were suddenly wrong this year!
Some people just want to be wrong.
Let me explain this, if I may, in more detail. In April 2021, President Biden launched a national initiative to get everyone vaccinated. (I'm not sure that "initiative" is the correct term, but it was a big deal.) Corporations began tracking employees' vaccination status. Participation rates were WIDELY discussed on the news channels. One month later, Fauci, Marks, and Walenski were in a Congressional hearing to discuss, among other things, the success of vaccination participation initiatives. They were asked under oath and thus penalty of purgery, how many of their own employees had been vaccinated. Surely this was an anticipated question.
Marks seemed very comfortable with this question and answered first, saying 50-60%. Fauci followed saying about the same... 50-60%. Walenski had their answers before hers so she could have given a range as well, but she refused to do so.
My point is that here is the CDC's leader... the world's leading organization in the fight against Covid AND the organization flooding the airways urging us every freaking single day telling us to get vaccinated... and she can't even estimate how many of her OWN employees have been vaccinated.
Having firsthand experience attending high level military meetings, I cannot imagine an organizational leader
1) being tasked with tracking the percent of soldiers in compliance with a directive
2) being called into the commander's staff meeting to discuss compliance
3) and not knowing the compliance of her own organization.
HOW COULD SHE NOT BE PREPARED TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION?
Either she really didn't know... demonstrating incompetence at the leadership level. Or... she was purposely evading the question because any number lower than 50-60% would have clearly shown her incompetence as a leader.
So if the leader of the CDC evades answering what should have been a simple question, how can you expect me to trust anything that comes out of that organization?
I'm sure the CDC has some great people, but the organization has failed the American people. The CDC's mission is in its name, for goodness sakes... Center for DISEASE CONTROL. Yet, the USA has one of the highest... if not the highest... COVID mortality rates among developed nations. At least part of that failure falls on the CDC.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.20 -
Monkeys Skyping wrote:
fisky wrote:
. . .
37% of Americans do not trust the CDC, according to recent poll.
That's kind of my point.
The question then is what source do these persons find trustworthy and is that source truly worthy of their trust.
The internet has made it possible to find attractively packaged support for just about any viewpoint and a great deal of it is rubbish.
If the internet existed in 1959, perhaps alternate viewpoints about Thalidomide would have had an avenue to reach their intended audience.
Still waiting for that withheld CDC data.
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fisky wrote:
2600 bro wrote:
The CDC directors lack of knowledge about employees medical history means their decades and verifiable old death counting methods were suddenly wrong this year!
Some people just want to be wrong.
Let me explain this, if I may, in more detail. In April 2021, President Biden launched a national initiative to get everyone vaccinated. (I'm not sure that "initiative" is the correct term, but it was a big deal.) Corporations began tracking employees' vaccination status. Participation rates were WIDELY discussed on the news channels. One month later, Fauci, Marks, and Walenski were in a Congressional hearing to discuss, among other things, the success of vaccination participation initiatives. They were asked under oath and thus penalty of purgery, how many of their own employees had been vaccinated. Surely this was an anticipated question.
Marks seemed very comfortable with this question and answered first, saying 50-60%. Fauci followed saying about the same... 50-60%. Walenski had their answers before hers so she could have given a range as well, but she refused to do so.
My point is that here is the CDC's leader... the world's leading organization in the fight against Covid AND the organization flooding the airways urging us every freaking single day telling us to get vaccinated... and she can't even estimate how many of her OWN employees have been vaccinated.
Having firsthand experience attending high level military meetings, I cannot imagine an organizational leader
1) being tasked with tracking the percent of soldiers in compliance with a directive
2) being called into the commander's staff meeting to discuss compliance
3) and not knowing the compliance of her own organization.
HOW COULD SHE NOT BE PREPARED TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION?
Either she really didn't know... demonstrating incompetence at the leadership level. Or... she was purposely evading the question because any number lower than 50-60% would have clearly shown her incompetence as a leader.
So if the leader of the CDC evades answering what should have been a simple question, how can you expect me to trust anything that comes out of that organization?
I'm sure the CDC has some great people, but the organization has failed the American people. The CDC's mission is in its name, for goodness sakes... Center for DISEASE CONTROL. Yet, the USA has one of the highest... if not the highest... COVID mortality rates among developed nations. At least part of that failure falls on the CDC.
We can doubt Walensky's competency but I don't see how that affects its death tracking reliability which has existed for decades.
All their methods are published too! If you think we should just use a static baseline for excess deaths, go ahead and use the OECD data... but that seems very hard to defend.
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2600 bro wrote:
We can doubt Walensky's competency but I don't see how that affects its death tracking reliability which has existed for decades.
All their methods are published too! If you think we should just use a static baseline for excess deaths, go ahead and use the OECD data... but that seems very hard to defend.
I've lamented many times on this thread about the lack of transparency from the CDC on multiple issues that, in my opinion, have led to more deaths from covid.
For example, and still somewhat on topic, I've attempted to find the number of US obese adults who have died from covid. All I can find is a report that aggregates hospitalizations, ventilations, and deaths into one figure (78%), but I can't find a number for obese deaths.
Can you find a link that shows the % of adult COVID deaths who were obese?
My premise... that I've presented here before... is that many hospitalizations and deaths could have been prevented if our national spokespersons on COVID (primarily Fauci and Walenski) had finished their daily news mantra (vax, social distance, mask) and then added, "And for goodness sakes if you're overweight or obese, lose weight. We know that obesity greatly increases the risk of severe covid complications."
That takes 9 seconds to say... 9 seconds.
Instead, obesity rates accelerated in 2020-2021.
This post was edited 40 seconds after it was posted.10 -
fisky wrote:
2600 bro wrote:
We can doubt Walensky's competency but I don't see how that affects its death tracking reliability which has existed for decades.
All their methods are published too! If you think we should just use a static baseline for excess deaths, go ahead and use the OECD data... but that seems very hard to defend.
I've lamented many times on this thread about the lack of transparency from the CDC on multiple issues that, in my opinion, have led to more deaths from covid.
For example, and still somewhat on topic, I've attempted to find the number of US obese adults who have died from covid. All I can find is a report that aggregates hospitalizations, ventilations, and deaths into one figure (78%), but I can't find a number for obese deaths.
Can you find a link that shows the % of adult COVID deaths who were obese?
My premise... that I've presented here before... is that many hospitalizations and deaths could have been prevented if our national spokespersons on COVID (primarily Fauci and Walenski) had finished their daily news mantra (vax, social distance, mask) and then added, "And for goodness sakes if you're overweight or obese, lose weight. We know that obesity greatly increases the risk of severe covid complications."
That takes 9 seconds to say... 9 seconds.
Instead, obesity rates accelerated in 2020-2021.
Everyone who is overweight hears they need to lose weight constantly. Another talking head of TV saying that does not move the needle. It's honestly a waste of attention vs. short term changes that can have a real effect. Getting into a weight loss regime is probably not going to change your risk of dying of COVID in the next 4 weeks during a surge – wearing a mask and avoiding obvious transmission events might.
I feel like I've said this dozens of times, but just because the CDC does not provide the data in the exact format you desire, doesn't mean they aren't providing good idea.
If you really had an interest, you could probably get death certificate codes from the NHCS to find comorbidities, but that is almost certainly not going to be complete.
Do doctors even log a patients weight at death? Some might include it as a comorbidity but some might not. Regardless, there are plenty of studies that provide the data in more controlled analysis.
Finally: CDC says this:
Having obesity increases the risk of severe illness from COVID-19. People who are overweight may also be at increased risk.
Having obesity may triple the risk of hospitalization due to a COVID-19 infection.Not really burying the lede!
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DanM wrote:
Monkeys Skyping wrote:
That's kind of my point.
The question then is what source do these persons find trustworthy and is that source truly worthy of their trust.
The internet has made it possible to find attractively packaged support for just about any viewpoint and a great deal of it is rubbish.
If the internet existed in 1959, perhaps alternate viewpoints about Thalidomide would have had an avenue to reach their intended audience.
Still waiting for that withheld CDC data.
Thalidomide was never approved by the FDA precisely because there was not adequate data on it's safety for pregnant mothers.
It's an excellent example of the FDA watching out for the safety of Americans.
Thank you for bringing it up.
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Harambe wrote:
fisky wrote:
I've lamented many times on this thread about the lack of transparency from the CDC on multiple issues that, in my opinion, have led to more deaths from covid.
For example, and still somewhat on topic, I've attempted to find the number of US obese adults who have died from covid. All I can find is a report that aggregates hospitalizations, ventilations, and deaths into one figure (78%), but I can't find a number for obese deaths.
Can you find a link that shows the % of adult COVID deaths who were obese?
My premise... that I've presented here before... is that many hospitalizations and deaths could have been prevented if our national spokespersons on COVID (primarily Fauci and Walenski) had finished their daily news mantra (vax, social distance, mask) and then added, "And for goodness sakes if you're overweight or obese, lose weight. We know that obesity greatly increases the risk of severe covid complications."
That takes 9 seconds to say... 9 seconds.
Instead, obesity rates accelerated in 2020-2021.
Everyone who is overweight hears they need to lose weight constantly. Another talking head of TV saying that does not move the needle. It's honestly a waste of attention vs. short term changes that can have a real effect. Getting into a weight loss regime is probably not going to change your risk of dying of COVID in the next 4 weeks during a surge – wearing a mask and avoiding obvious transmission events might.
I feel like I've said this dozens of times, but just because the CDC does not provide the data in the exact format you desire, doesn't mean they aren't providing good idea.
If you really had an interest, you could probably get death certificate codes from the NHCS to find comorbidities, but that is almost certainly not going to be complete.
Do doctors even log a patients weight at death? Some might include it as a comorbidity but some might not. Regardless, there are plenty of studies that provide the data in more controlled analysis.
Finally: CDC says this:
Having obesity increases the risk of severe illness from COVID-19. People who are overweight may also be at increased risk.
Having obesity may triple the risk of hospitalization due to a COVID-19 infection.Not really burying the lede!
Everyone agrees the US has poor medical records standardization and data collection.
But I think fisky simply wishes the CDC had more power and was tasked with a wider scope. Lots of the original research he wants done is done by external groups with federal support.10 -
fisky wrote:
I've lamented many times on this thread about the lack of transparency from the CDC on multiple issues that, in my opinion, have led to more deaths from covid.
For example, and still somewhat on topic, I've attempted to find the number of US obese adults who have died from covid. All I can find is a report that aggregates hospitalizations, ventilations, and deaths into one figure (78%), but I can't find a number for obese deaths.
The CDC has a page on risk factors for covid outcomes here:
The page has a high level discussion and references a couple hundred supporting studies.
As part of it there is a graphic of selected risk factors that looks like this:
Which suggests that obesity is a significant risk factor for covid mortality, but not as strong a risk factor as age, for instance. It would suggest the statement "It's just fat people who are at risk from covid", which seems to be what you'd like to believe, is not accurate.
That said, this is a running forum, and I expect you'd have a hard time finding anyone here who disagrees with the idea that physical fitness improves a broad range of health outcomes, but it's not a silver bullet. This is well supported by the medical literature.
You've also been here long enough to know that when Michelle Obama engaged in exercise and nutrition advocacy, it was often panned by political opponents as "nanny state-ism", so I'm skeptical that it would have been received any differently coming from Fauci or other public health figure.
That is, you're not wrong about the message, but it's doubtful that it would have made a significant impact.
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Fauci make me mad 😡 just because low IQ republican bum say he the big bad guy
I hate be told to mask at my shift at work for that one year
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fisky wrote: Either she really didn't know... demonstrating incompetence at the leadership level. Or... she was purposely evading the question because any number lower than 50-60% would have clearly shown her incompetence as a leader.
No, any low number would show that the people in the orgs pushing the "vaccines," knew better than to take the "vaccines" themselves.
It was competency, from an evil perspective, to lie, deny, and hide the truth about these matters.
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Covid vaccines are still a thing ? I do not know any people who have take a Covid vaccine in the last 2 years.
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DanM wrote:
Covid vaccines are still a thing ? I do not know any people who have take a Covid vaccine in the last 2 years.
They keep it a secret from you because they know you’re dumb
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DanM wrote:
Covid vaccines are still a thing ? I do not know any people who have take a Covid vaccine in the last 2 years.
Because they work?
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