LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

Johnny, I tend to be of the 'ankle' drive school of Lydiard hill running as I find that the easist method to get athletes into Hill running, the other methods can evolve aound that as they become more experienced. But once again you have to see what works for you.. For marathon running I feel the 'ankle' drive idea is more suited. Probably the best athlete who used this method was Jeff Julian. He really concentrated on each stride pushing off the front of the foot with an exagerated arm action making slow progress up the hill. He was also an 'ace' at the downhill stride work as well.

I find with a lot of athletes you have to be there for their down hill work as some 'overstride'out of control or compensate by "braking". for beginners or those who don't run well downhill (ME!!!!) I tend to do that work on the flat near the hill.

Just yesterday I thought I would run up one of my hills for 400m or so just to refresh my memory, using ankle drive.

As I started a young guy (Rugby Player)was doing "Hill Sprints" , he passed me at 50m. I found he was "all over the place", Flat footed and uncoordinated as he tried to "squeeze" more speed out of his legs. He got to the 150m Mark and looked as though he had just run a marathon. I passed him with a big grin on my face. He will never know why !!!!!.

Don't get sucked into this method.

Johnny:

Of course, "going out like a maniac" in ANY marathon is not a smart idea. You now added one extra variable to measure whether your "running 20 minutes slower at Boston" was due to lack of preparation for hills, both up and down.

It is important to prepare yourself for BOTH uphills and downhills to run a course like Boston. While most people talk about the Heartbreak Hill (although the origin of the name is more of emotional cause than literal), it is as much of downhill running that would make you prepared for the course. Bill Rodgers, as you know, was the king of downhill running and did well over Boston course.

Some people might have hard time handling types of hill training Lydiard advocated. I used to compete in triple jump and I developed what Arthur teasingly called "the best hill bounder" he knew. When I was in NZ, I used to pick up 2 or 3 spots going over the fence (only to be passed by 4 or 5 people on flat!) so I have no problem doing hill exercises. The best way, Lydiard always said, is to go over, say, for 15 minutes (instead of using how many reps) of hill exercise first and see how your legs react to it. Then do 20 minutes, then 30 minutes and so on. As you pointed out, it is NOT anaerobic developing workout (though you WILL get into it). It is not to be performed as an all-out sprint. It is technique/resistance work.

Nobby, I think that description of Seko is perfect. I know that hill well !!!!

Nobby (and everyone else),

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from earlier references in this thread, I assumed that #2 (hill bounding) was kind of like bounding for distance, but not using the typical American skipping motion of landing on the same foot you take off on. Instead, landing on the opposing foot. I use your example of a "deer jumping over a fence" and kind of hanging for just a brief second in mid-air.

The #3 (hill springing) I've described to my kids as bounding for height instead of distance. Really exaggerating and emphasizing that rear ankle 'flick,' but again landing on the opposite foot that you take off with, not skipping.

The #1 (steep hill running) I just tell the kids to exaggerate high knees with a light forward thrust in their hips and this I've always done as high knee running, no bounding or skipping involved.

I also usually have a transition period where I have my athletes do these on a flat, grassy surface to try and get the form correct before we go into actually using them on the hills, although we incorporate hills throughout all of our training phases because the main park we train in has several.

Feel free to chime in, everyone, on whether or not I'm explaining these correctly. I guess my main thing I I always thought #2 (hill bounding) wasn't skipping, but rather landing on the opposite foot you take off of.

I think we need to have HRE chip in his opinion--just kidding! I should have had you do bounding and skipping last April just to check out, HRE.

All these three exercises involve "exaggerated form" of actual running; not skipping. Depending on the level of athletes, you may want to alter the degree of the hill as well as the length of the hill. Actually there's nothing wrong with "skipping"; you'll still get some benefit from it--particularly the push-off power; but it's just the degree of "balistic" action on your legs, particularly on your Achilles, will be nowhere near what it would be if you actually do "bounding" or "springing" in the running action (alternating your feet). It is this balistic action that is a big part of the benefit from these plyometric hill exercises.

I'm supposed to lead Lydiard-type hill training exercises to beginning joggers next week, and then a bunch of high school kids for U of M running camp next month. It seems to me that it's easier to have them start with just simply running (slowly!) up the hill first and gradually lengthen their stride length = air time. I've noticed having them start with skipping may make them comfused even more because the movements are quite different. They can do skipping just fine but it really doesn't help them to ease into bounding or springing.

Again, skipping can be a good exercise too; it may actually be even better exercise if they can't really master the bounding movement or for someone who's prone to Achilles problems. But real benefit is nowhere near what it could be from tru bounding/springing.

I sort of defer to guys like Nobby when we get to bounding and springing. Despite what Arthur always said about hillwork being an injury preventitive, I have a lot of problems with injuries whn I do hill repeats of any kind, though I have no problems with steady runs over hilly courses.

That said, I do a hill session each week, but essentially I just run up and down the hill. This is actually on the advice of Barry Magee who told me that he didn't think I should spring or bound. I do try to get more knee lift when I run the hills than I get when I'm running normally (no big accomplishment there.)

I thought it was because you were actually doing "skipping" thinking it was "bounding"??? Just kidding; just giving you a hard time.

Didn't you say you actually had trouble downhill? Or did I misunderstand it?

Again, when people say, "Lydiard's schedule calls for 3 hill training days a week plus sprint work in between. If I do it that much, I'd break down." My advice would be; "then don't do it!" Still it would be interesting to get down on your issue and analyze why you'd have trouble doing hill exercises... Would you have been strong enough to handle them if you started them, say, 30 years ago? Or are you just structurely not suited for hill bounding? Or if you have some sort of muscle issue... Or simply doing them wrongly!?

Hi Nobby: I knew that I was going to struggle at Boston because I had done no hill work at all (neither up nor down) for about 4 months prior. I qualified easily, by 21 minutes, because the marathon I ran was on a flat course. But, as George Sheehan used to say: "the hills will find you out". The reason I did no hill work was that I was working during the day and hill work outdoors, in the winter, at night just isnt realistic for me so I figured 2 hours indoors every night is pretty good although it involves no hill work and little speed. it got my weight down and my aerobic capactity up so that, in the spring, I could run Boston and start with hills and speed in preparation for a fall marathon.

I believe Bill Rodgers recommends a specific technique for downhill running: when you run downhill, lean your upper body into the downhill almost like you are about to fall over. You wont fall but you will pick up tremendous speed. I've used this with great success in the past. Its scary at first but have faith.

I'm going to try hill bounding again using the principles set out here. I've been injured in past doing hill bounding but I know I was doing them wrong.

I can still VIVIDLY remember the first time my wife took me to skiing in Japan (Zao). Yes, she simply told me to "lean into the hill" (she had been skiing in Rocky since she was 4). Me? I thought I was athletic that I could handle this "skiing" business easily... Let's just say my calves (not shin) were very sore from the edge of the ski boots! Oh, and my butt too!

When Lydiard was in the US, he suggested to me, on the hill training video we were showing, that we need to show downhill running technique as well. I assured him that the downhill section was already filmed; it was just the matter of putting them all together. Yes, the trick is to "lean into the hill" and not to lean backward where you would get too much "braking" action. You can really fly doing that way but, of course, you may pay the price in your thighs if you're not used to it.

One thing I noticed, doing hills in the winter (MN), is that, if you can find some bridge that runs in angle going over freeway--snow seems to melt a lot from the heat underneath. If you can do approximately a mile or so of a loop with such a bridge, it would be perfect to do some repeats over that. Guess not too many people are that lucky though... Be creative.

A suspension bridge, 1200m across, is the biggest hill we've got within 50 miles or more. I've used it a lot but I'm still learning the technique and effort level and the appropriate timing in the training scheme.

Been Marking papers so getting behind !!!.

I may have mentioned this before.Not sure whether here or on another thread.

When someone asked Arthur about downhill running and the 'leaning' with the hill. How do they stop the natural instinct to "brake" ?.

He suggested getting on a set of stairs in a house (at the top !) and as quickly as you can (very nimbly !!) run down the stairs. He said you will find your "minds eye" literally just out in front of you but you are controlling what the body does. ie Not falling over !

He said try and replicate that "feeling" when running downhill. So you are running very quickly, but under control.

I have an ideal hill for this and I have to say it works beautifully. As I said above I am the biggest "chicken" on down hills.

I find I struggle on some of the steeper hills but on something like a 5 to 15 degree hill it works well.

If you can get on a good golf course that has some hills like that it is great. However,I know that in the US getting onto Golf courses to run is not easy.

For you guys who have to use those bridges and freeway ramps (ideal angles)make sure you stride out well as concrete surfaces really knock the legs around.

I probably should have said Bridges that go over freeways,

Freeway ramps are probably great without the Cars. Fat chance of that though.!!!!

I don't want to read an article that says "Athlete arrested after being advised by kiwi to run on Freeway ramps!"

Cheers Team !

Okay when you talk about running down hill, but leaning into the hill...what do you mean?

It sounds like you would lean back in order to lean into a hill when running down.

I know the natural tendency is to lean back. If the hill is not too steep, I like to lean a tad forward, stand tall and over stride a bit, really snapping the push off. I pass people I cannot race against on the flat...

Picture the arm carriage - out for balance, chin up, slightly longer stride.

Also, this 3 x per week up hill work. I assume that that happens that often just during the hill phase. I think it would be advantageous to be fairly hill 'ready' before going 3 x per week into repeats. yes?

Kim,

It takes me forever to get down a flight of stairs anymore. I'd have to start Arthur's exercise by walking moderately and building. Next time I'm at your house we'll have to go to the stairs and you can show me how.

Nobby,

Yes, it seems to be the downhills that do me in. I have found that if I walk after the uphill part for about 5-10 seconds before starting back I do much better. I have no idea why.

Keep your body (upper body) 90 degree of the ground line (what do you call this? Perpendicular?). Natural tendency is to "lean backward" so the body stays perpendicular to the "horizen", not the downhill surface. Try to keep your body perpendicular to the "ground surface" not "horizen". Of course, you don't want to do that if the hill is too steep...

Kim, say, here's aa question for you. In the city of Auckland, which ones do you think we have more; uphills or downhills?

HRE, you (we?) are just getting too old to act like a kangaroo...

Nobby,

Back on page 10, you tell a story of Arthur putting Joan Ullyot on a beginnner's schedule. What was it all about and where could I see a copy of it?

page 4. Sorry.

I can even see the article...I know it's somewhere! It was when Dr. Ullyot try to break some record; either her PR or some qualifying time (Olympic trial?) or something. It said something about her trying to run slightly downhill marathon even to achieve that. Arthur told her, after she had run many marathons at the time, that "if you haven't broken 2:40, you're still a beginner." I believe he had simply "Beginning Marathon Schedule" and "Advanced Marathon Schedule" in his books. Basically he had her follow the former which she didn't like the idea of but I think it served the purpose.

...and don't tell me you're actually reading this whole damned thread!