LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

Kim:

How\'s Jack doing these days? What is he doing now? I heard something like he\'s involved in soccer now???

Speaking of the Lydiard influence, as you and I know, Jack, being the third guy after Arthur and Barry Magee who couldn't stand Kim-chee, is the guy who laid out the foundation for Korean marathoning dynasty in the 90s and on...

Geez Nobby it is in the wee hours for you right now.!!

Not sure exactly what Jack Ralston is doing right now. A few years ago he was with the New Zealand Rugby Union looking at their "systems" whatever that meant. I know it had nothing to do with training !!!

I saw him at the New Zealand Triathon Champs a few months ago but did not get to speak with him as I was busy with someone else. When I went to find him he had gone.

I knew Jack well "back in the day" when we both ran for Lynndale.

K-Larson wrote:

thx for the advice guys. If you dont mind me asking, Nobby, HRE, and Kim, what times have you guys run before, or are you coaches or what?

4:48 mile, 9:58 two mile, 15:34 5,000 meters, 19:53 four mile, 32:29 10,000 meter, 54:48 ten mile, 1:30:48 twenty five km, 1:48:54 thirty km, 2:35:21 marathon.

Occasioanlly I've coached but not consistently.

I like Tinman's approach. The most important thing is pace. Lydiard said that you can never run too slowly but you can run too fast although he stresses time trials and tempo runs in the last 10 weeks prior to the big race. I think anyone can run 2 hours almost regardless of age if you approach to it gradually and bear in mind that pace must be controlled. You get almost as much aerobic benefit out of a slow 2 hours than from a fast one and your more refreshed and able to do more 2 hour runs later on in the week or even the next day. Personally, i got to the point where I could run 2 hours every day with out any problems but it took me a while to build up to it. Honestly, at age 61, I'm a little afraid of speed workouts and races, especially early in the AM although I'm in good shape. I'm going to keep doing the long stuff and mix in some very short sprints (60 yards) just for leg speed so that I dont go anaerobic too much.

Thats a remarkable drop from 4:52 to 4:21. Do you attribute all of it to the 2 hour runs?

HRE:

I did 4:24 for the mile and 15:12 for 5000 but "only" 2:44 for the marathon. I knew I could have broken 2:40 if I didn't get sciatica while pacing one of my girls to 2:38 win in Japan... Oh, well...

Coached professionally for Japanese corperate team with 8 nationally ranked girls, ranging from 18 to 24 years old; 800m to marathon; based on Lydiard and Nakamura methods. Am sort of beginning to coach more seriously now. Officially, I have two people I'm coaching right now with the Lydiard Foundation Team. Hopefully you'll hear about them in a year or two.

Johnny:

You're on the right track. Do some hills. Go for some rugged cross country runs--Kim Stevenson can tell you; one of the main contributing factors for Jack Foster's great success in his 40s is running around the rugged Rotorua bush track.

My Times :

400m : 51.9 . 800m : 1:52, 1500 3:50. 3k : 8:29.

On the Road : 4 miles : 19:30. 10 miles : 51 mins.

Ran "Harriers" for many years here in NZ and did 4 years of College in the States. Was a NAIA Semi finalist over 800m one year .. Yeah even with that slow time.

I liked tio think I was a "Racer" not a "Pacer" !!!!

After graduating College (1977)and coming home to NZ began to Coach but never stopped running myself. Spent time learning 'the trade" from Arthur Lydiard, Arch Jelley (near neighbour) and a Sprint Coach : Russ Hoggard.

Coached a heap of people to far faster times than my own.

Am a High School teacher/administrator. Enjoy Coaching High School kids. With track I have taken pride in the fact that any kid I have Coached has never failed to make a National Final. Lowest placing 6th.

Was Manager/Coach to the National Secondary Schools Cross Country team in 2001.

Johnny : Nobby is right, Hit the hills. Also we had a thread on Jack Foster going quite well a year or so ago. I posted a lot there. Maybe worth you checking it out.

I had a few runs with Jack when he was well into his 60's (Just prior to him hanging up the shoes and getting back on the Bike). His strength came from the Up and down hill running on the farmland that surrounds us and the forest tracks where I still run.

Thanks for bringing up that quote of Arthur's about never being able to run too slowly but that you can run too fast. It slipped my mind.

Thanks a lot Nobby and Kim. I know hills are the best but I dont have many close to where I live. I have to drive about 20 mins. to get to a good hilly course. Lately, I've been using the local gyms treadmill for a hill workout as follows: I run for 90 mins with the first 5 mins. very slow, then i increase the elevation one tenth of a degree for ever minute so that for example at 50 mins. I'm runnning at 5.0 degrees incline at 10 min miles. at 55 mins., the incline is at 5.5 degrees, etc. At the end of the 90 mins, I'm running at a 9 degree incline at 10 min miles. I can always adjust the incline and speed as I get fitter but this is a convenient way for me to get in a hill workout without all the driving around. the gym is only 2 mins from my home.

I attended a talk given by Arthur Lydiard in Pittsburgh in about 1976 and at that time I was concerned that I might be running too many tough hills everyday. he kind of laughed at that idea and told me to keep running the hills and dont worry about getting hurt or burned out on the hills. I took his advice and ran tough hills every day and got into the best shape of my life: 1:16:12 half marathon. I just hope the treadmill idea works out. Any thoughts?

I'm sure you know; one of the best alternate to hill running would be steps/stairs running. I was talking to this Kenyan guy at Grandma's this past weekend and he told me that there's this waterfall in Kenya where Seb Coe used to come and run up and down. He said that he would NOT go up it fast but slow forward momentum, taking every step (as Lydiard's Steep Hill Running) and he would do it 25 reps. Lydiard always talked about this old man in Texas who lived absolutely flat area. He used to jog around in the morning to the local stadium and go up and down the stadium steps. Marty Liquori of course later claimed that stadium steps in University of Florida was the key to his success. "If Lydiard lived flat area like I did," he said, "he would have used steps instead of hill circuit."

Treadmill works just as well; however, bear in mind, downhill running has its place and value as well (don't ask me about stadium step running and downhill running...). It is a great excentric resistance work as well as leg-speed work. If you only do it on the treadmill and/or steps, make sure you do some leg-speed work on flat or slightly downhill grade.

Thanks again. I just checked the Jack Foster thread and there really is a ton of great info. there. I saved it and will read it soon. At present, I'm only doing the 2 hour run a couple of times a week and am doing most days at two 90 min runs mixing in a couple of hill runs/week. However, I realize now that I need more hills and am going to try to run a lot more hill workouts, either on the road or on the treadmill (when I'm pressed for time or in bad weather). I really dont think there is anything wrong with running hills everyday, if one can handle it.

Actually, if the final goal is to run track (flat) fast, you should run fast on flat as well. Hills will prepare you to run fast on flat. But there IS such thing as too much hills (and not enough of other thing).

When I was working with Arthur in Venzuela, we were at the National Sports Complex in Maracaibo, flat as a pancake, and hot. He took Luis Romero, the National Record holder in the marathon, 2:38 (1973),nicknamed the sloth because he never seemed to run fast, and had him do repeats up the stadium seats (they were like 2 or 3 steps, solid concrete). He would spring up and jog slowly down the stairs. He completed 4 climbs on each side of the stadium, jogging between sides. Luis was doing those 3 times a week for 3 weeks. Then we started running time trials. His first 800 was 2:06, followed by a 200 in 25. The same trials 3 weeks later he timed 1:52 and 22.7, fast enough to make the national 800 squad and his state 200 team. Luis later ran a 3:42 1500, before going back to the 10 km, where he nearly broke the national 10 km record with a 30:55. Hill work is a real benefit.

Glenn

Good to know. I'm coaching this young lady and we will be getting into hill training in November. As you know, there aren't too many good hills in MN; plus there will be snow-covered by November anyways! I'm thinking about doing hill training over some stadium steps and have been looking for a good stand. We have another choice of doing it inside the tall building but I don't like to go round and around...

So what do you guys recommend for someone who is very fit having covered many miles (100-150+ weekly) but has no pace?

I do most of my miles between 7-8mm pace at very low (65-70%Max) HRs - I can run sub 5:30 pace aerobically, but it always brings on injury whenever I try. I SHOULD be able to run sub 5:30 pace easily enough with my "engine" but the body cannot handle it and falls apart.

Are hills the answer?

How would you enable someone in this situation to cope with faster paces injury free?

Analyze what injury you get; identify the cause of it. Why would 5:30 pace cause injury? Is it the way you run? Is it the amount of 5:30 pace running you do? Is it the surface (road, track, tight turn, rough rocky area)? What is the injury; shin splint, stress fructure, muscle pull,

Achilles problem, hamstring problem, thigh problem???

There are so many "injuries" and much more "causes" for those injuries. Unless you identify that, you cannot prescribe "the answer".

4 climbs on each side of the stadium would be a total of 8 climbs? Isnt that like running 8 hills? Was that the whole workout? It sounds pretty light? How much time did the workout take? How big was the stadium? Did he take 2 or 3 steps at once? Thanks for your help.

Johnny:

Glenn should tell you exactly what Arthur did in Venezuela but here's a word of advice;

Lydiard "evolved" into recommending 3 different exercises using hills; (1) steep hill running to mainly strengthen knee lift, (2) hill bounding to emphasize back leg extention and (3) hill springing to strengthen ankle flexibility. Depending on the event you're training for as well as your own strengths and weaknesses, you should pick one or mix these exercises. For (1) and (3), you should not skip steps and use every step because the forward momentum will be slow and each step would be short. For (2) you should "reach out" like, as Arthur always said, "a deer going over the fence"; so you should skip 2 or 3 steps. Bear in mind, this (hill bounding) can be quite highly anaerobically demanding.

The length of the circuit and the duration of the workout is irrelevant; you should always do as much as you think you can manage without damaging the next day's workout and progress gradually. In the case of Toni Hodgkinson, coached by John Davies to the surprise finalist in the women's 800m in 1996 Atlanta Olympics, she did four weeks of hill training to "bound up the hill with exaggerated knee lift" and stride down. Initially, it took her 3:15 for a circuit and did it 8 times. By the end of four weeks, she was doing it in 2:45 (though the time of the lap is irrelevant) 10 times. She was doing it every weekday.

One more thing; Toni is an 800m runner (1:58). If you're a marathon runner, I would recommend, in general, steep hill running over longish hill but slow forward momentum, not bounding action. I have a footage of Toshihiko Seko, training for LA Olympics. He was in NZ, going up One Tree Hill in Auckland in what I'd call a perfect steep hill running technique. Very short steps, good exaggerated knee lift and straight arm swing; spending "a half a second extra" on your foot each step...

Sorry, folks, I know I'm like 7 months behind (after I promised I was trying to get hill training visual on my website by Christmas); but we are moving forward with the Lydiard Foundation website which we are expecting to complete by 7/1/06. My folks in MN has been working on it and I'd expect this to be pretty cool. Glenn and HRE, your tribute to the Old Man will be there as well as an article written by Ron Clarke (Lonely Breed) will be posted (yes, with HIS permission!). We'll have visuals, audio tapes (Arthur and other people as well), a part of PPT presentation, various interviews and articles, etc. This time, it's real! (no more "cry wolf"!)