Where did Phil go?
Where did Phil go?
got injured cause he forced himself through a workout even though he acknowledged pain upon the first step of running.
/"From the first step on, massive pain in both shins, around 7/10. Whole run/workout was painful, first 200 was only a 37 but I somehow managed to complete it since I'm in good shape aerobically and really well rested apart from the painful shin muscles."
source: Strava
Pretty dumb I would say
Yeah! So stupid training by this LRP guy! Talks a lot about how good Tinman training is that he tries to follow. Talked himself up and told he wouldn't do same mistake as time before, and still he did same mistake, lol
Potassiumman wrote:
got injured cause he forced himself through a workout even though he acknowledged pain upon the first step of running.
/"From the first step on, massive pain in both shins, around 7/10. Whole run/workout was painful, first 200 was only a 37 but I somehow managed to complete it since I'm in good shape aerobically and really well rested apart from the painful shin muscles."
source: Strava
Pretty dumb I would say
What is the Strava page, please?
Phil, you did speed work with 7/10 pain in your shins? :O
bump, phil should have a bit of time to reply now that he's got shin splints
Sorry to hear the news, Philip.
Potassiumman wrote:
got injured cause he forced himself through a workout even though he acknowledged pain upon the first step of running.
/"From the first step on, massive pain in both shins, around 7/10. Whole run/workout was painful, first 200 was only a 37 but I somehow managed to complete it since I'm in good shape aerobically and really well rested apart from the painful shin muscles."
source: Strava
Pretty dumb I would say
Wow, thought he was just a troll - but found his strava and he’s real!!
https://www.strava.com/athletes/26822482rewhbbbd wrote:
What is the Strava page, please?
More better strava wrote:
https://www.strava.com/athletes/26822482rewhbbbd wrote:
What is the Strava page, please?
Thank you.
coahc wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
5k progression (all races on road):
2003-2011 completely sedentary
2011 - unable to run 5k at start, extremely slow, but improvements. developed chronic shin splints, that lasted 6-7 years. started cycling/swimming after injury, ~1-5h/week average
2012 - 26:22 (sprint triathlon) & 22:29 (sprint triathlon), off cycling/swim training
2013 - 20:42 & 20:31 off cycling/swim training. Injured again after running a bit in Austin during student exchange
2014-2017 no races, limited training. After mid 2017, 1-3 very easy jogs a week, ~5-10 mpw
01/18 - 20:05 - 10 mpw + cross-training
04/18 - 18:52 - 17 mpw + cross-training
05/18 - 18:25 - 20 mpw + cross-training
09/18 - 17:37 - 40 mpw + cross-training
03/19 - 17:18 - 50 mpw
04/19 - 16:55 (adjusted 4.2k race time) - 50 mpw
09/19 - 16:15 (adjusted 4.88k race time) - 60 mpw
09/20 - Goal 15:30-15:45
Some of you will remember me from my first training thread here. Like I wrote there in the conclusion, I ended up doing Tinman training without doing Tinman training in my first 2 years as training runner. I thought I figured it all out, kept running my paces but after reviewing my race and performance times realized, what I was doing had nothing to do with Tinman training.
People in the thread repeatedly told me that I was training too fast/hard and should adjust my paces to my race performances or do a TT. But I thought that since it's LRC they are just trolls and want me to train slower than my level so I don't improve enough and miss my targets. Boy was I wrong. People actually just wanted to help me, they have seen it before in themselves or with other runners they know and wanted to prevent me from doing the same mistakes. Instead of doing CV workouts (5-6x1k w 200m rest), I was doing Daniels VO2MAX workouts, just with even shorter rest than ideal, week after week after week after week. My recovery portions were often 10 min mile, and often I had to take a break after 2-3 reps because I was struggling. I just managed to barely complete the last rep, and was breathing heavily throughout the whole workout. This had nothing to do with CV pace, it was around 5k pace and that's how I've always done these workouts (except in the beginning where I did 3k pace).
I conditioned my body to use anaerobic energy (which as FT athlete I'm strong with) to complete my workouts, and as a result never improved my 10k or HM ability. The absolute maximum pace I could hold in my peak 5k was 5:20/mile (3:20/k), and my splits (3:10-3:20-3:20-3:20-3:05 with last 400 in 60) show that. Not just did I miss my goal of sub 16, but I also never conditioned my body to get strong aerobically and hold a fast pace, my 10k time was substantially worse than my 5k PR of 16:15, around 35:30. The anaerobic system influences the 5k, but the 10k shows how inefficient my training was.
My "Tinman Tempos" were Daniel's lactate threshold runs at 1 hour pace (but longer than 20 min), and my 6k "threshold run" was a 6k @10k pace run, similar to my 2000m reps which were done at 10k pace. My VO2MAX sessions where I got a very dry throat and burning quads were also too fast. I used my dream/goal 5k time and my mile PR to set my training paces, and not my current performance level over 5k or 10k.
After my peak 5k race, I got worse in every 5k afterwards (3:18/k, 3:21/k, 3:25/k, although none all-out but close to it since all-out makes me sick) and as a last resort, thought I'd have to train even harder to reverse that trend. I did mountain runs on fatigued legs where I broke down on the downhill and added new sessions I've never done before like 20x400 and 20x200 as fast as I could pushing through any and all pain and at the end it resulted in a stress fracture (my 3rd in just two years of running) in my lower back where I couldn't even walk for 3 weeks and had to take 6 full weeks off in December.
I finally started to realize all my mistakes and that the people here on LRC who posted in my thread were right. My progression would have happened anyway as a new runner with decent basic speed and the increases in mileage, no matter what type of training/workouts I would do. I got better because I was able to train and run more, not because of "Tinman Training" or smart training. But my training was too hard, I trained exactly how Tinman does not want his athletes to train - VO2MAX/5k-paced intervals week after week. Sure, I improved a lot in the short term and in short events, but it was not sustainable, my race performances melted like chocolate in the sun and I had to deal with multiple stress fractures, performance losses, irregular race performances, and a big drop of performance whenever I took any time off (no runner could ever explain why I would immediately get so much slower after just 5 days or 10 days off). CONTINUED.
Everyone would love to think that performance improvements were just that easy. As a high schooler many years ago a steady dose of 40 miles a week with a few good quality sessions was all that I needed to run 15:13 on the track for 5k.
Fast forward 35 years and as a coach this time is easily achievable with once again a steady dose of 40-50 miles with a few good workouts. I had a young athlete come to me in August after he finished next to last in the Aussie U20 8k XC final in around 31 minutes. After adjusting his training his last race before everything shut down was 15:37. Now he has talent and please remember how easy it is to run the times you strive for ultimately depend on your talent as an athlete.
Based on what you have posted you should be able to achieve your goal. Tinman, Daniels oh they sound so cliche. My suggestion is to do the training you enjoy focussing on your aerobic development. Back in 1986 I went to a private coach and to this day the most important workout he gave me was 5x3 minutes with 90 seconds rest. I ran this on an apartment complex cinder fitness track. Mark a line and go back and forth. Sounds simple. Another session was 12-14 x30 seconds with 30 seconds rest on a golf course. Other than that everything else was easy running. So what I am trying to say is keep it simple, get in the right race and keep enjoying your training. You are the only one who really cares how fast you run and I hope that you achieve your goals.
Now there are many trolls on this site but my career stands up pretty well so take what you want.
Good luck to you. Maybe take up coaching. Private coaching is a good business and you never know when you get a chance to work with someone special.
I know this post is a few weeks old, but regarding the 5 x 3 minute and the 12 x 30s workout - would the rest periods be standing/walking/jogging recovery?
Thanks in advance.
Phil, just checked your Strava. You logged a tempo run on the track yesterday. Not posting here. I a worried you are in a dark place, unable to overcome a compulsion to run, despite signs that your body is breaking down.
Having been there myself man, focus on getting better and nothing else. You can still run, but I think it is time to prioritize your health over a short-term race goal. I am worried you are unwilling to back off the intensity. Why not just pop off a week of slow 3-milers? I promise the path to recovery is shorter if you take it earlier.
Not wanting to be gossipy. Wanting you to heal up - you've only been running for 2 years, and it would be a shame to sacrifice so much future enjoyment to an injury.
Laterunnerphil, I understand you have shin problems. That's an incipient stress fracture. There is a great exercise for that, like playing bass drum pedal. Rest your heel on a step and lift the front part of your foot up and down many, many times. Be sure to move it to the left and right sometimes to get different parts of the anterior tibialis working. You should feel it there. You can do it sitting down as well but you can't move your foot below the horizontal there. You can also do it with resistance by lying face down on a mattress and pushing the front part of the foot up against the mattress.
When I had shin splints badly once, ice and rest did nothing in the short-term but these exercises worked rapidly and have worked ever since when I have felt the shins.
Good advice. One week with hiking and relaxing in the mountains? You will come back stronger.
Hi wrote:
Phil, just checked your Strava. You logged a tempo run on the track yesterday. Not posting here. I a worried you are in a dark place, unable to overcome a compulsion to run, despite signs that your body is breaking down.
Having been there myself man, focus on getting better and nothing else. You can still run, but I think it is time to prioritize your health over a short-term race goal. I am worried you are unwilling to back off the intensity. Why not just pop off a week of slow 3-milers? I promise the path to recovery is shorter if you take it earlier.
Not wanting to be gossipy. Wanting you to heal up - you've only been running for 2 years, and it would be a shame to sacrifice so much future enjoyment to an injury.
He is a very typical compulsive trainer. I was just like that my self during my best years. My coach had told med to do 10x400 at a certain pace. If I felt good I would do 15 even if I, deep inside, knew that it was completely idiotic. Afterwards I would always come up with a bunch of excuses:
My coach had underestimated my fitness, it couldn´t be harmful to do more if you were feeling good etc.
The "long awaited" update.
No, I did not have a injury. I had a big injury last winter, where training mistakes gave me a sacral stress fracture and I took off 6 weeks doing nothing. In the first 2-3 weeks I couldn't even move and had extreme pain.
I had shin splints since I started running. I had them in 2010, when I first tried running on 10-15 mpw. They were so intense back then that I had to stop a car to drive me home cos I couldn't walk. I also couldn't do turns in a swimming pool. They were chronic and I picked up swimming and cycling, and ran two 5k's, one in 20:50 and one in 20:30 (which was very good) off just that. But the shin splints never healed, came back as soon as I tried running.
Summer 2016 I tried running again, jogging 10 min/mile twice a week for 3-5 miles. I did that for 1.5 years. Then did a lactate test, and started integrating workouts and long runs. Often had shin pain and other lower leg fatigue, but manageable and trained through it. Training in general went very well the last 2.5 years, since I dropped my 5k time from 20:30 to 16:10.
Anyway - my shin splints never have a single cause. I reviewed all my training logs since I frequently get them and usually run through them. It is always some form of "overtraining", or "doing too much too soon".
My recent case became so painful that I took 5 days off. I just didn't want to run through that sharp pain anymore and just slog out runs and workouts. That made me depressed and I stopped posting here and just played video games all day. Gained weight, from 72kg to 75kg in just a week.
It didn't suddenly come on - it started weeks ago, where I first mentioned it in my training logs. Now I know why. I did well early this year, after recovery from my sacral stress fracture. I peaked at 90 mpw in training camp, and felt indestructible. But I kept making my workouts bigger, and bigger, and long runs longer, and faster. Long runs were up to 2 hours, either on super hilly terrain OR on flat terrain in 6:45/mi (4:10/k) pace. Often in direct sun. Workouts were usually 90 minutes, like 8x1k@CV + 8x30s hills or 10-12k tempos followed by 4-6x30s hills with long warm-up and CD.
Yesterday I watched Tinmans presentation about "training stress" and I realized I was accumulating crazy stress points. A 5k race is 100 points, but my workouts used to be in the 130-170 point range. And I never took enough time to recover, and never had "easy" or "moderate" workouts, each workout was super big. Last year I made the mistake of running too fast in workouts - my CV was not CV, but aerobic power/5k pace (and tempo was threshold). This year, I thought I'm doing the right thing because I was running the right paces, but I ended up killing my legs with volume instead of intensity. People here in the thread said to do fewer CV or fewer threshold reps or to do shorter tempos but I always "maxed" it out. My shins got worse and worse until the point reached a level where each jump or running step hurt. It was especially the left leg, so it had to do with the track workouts, my hardest sessions.
One time I did 5x1600 and then 5x200 in 29 average in new shoes. That's a lot of stress for a 34 min 10k runner with 2 years of running experience. Three days later I did a 10k TT on the track. 2 days later a 2 hour long run fast. 2 days after that another fast 10k tempo @threshold where I died at the end and then did some hill sprints after to make it even worse. No wonder my legs got once again destroyed.
After the 5 day break, I started running again few days ago and while I'm not 100% healed, everything is much better now and I'm having fun again. I can hop on the left leg again without much pain. That's all I'm going to write for now, I'll do a swim double. I will also review my planned excel/training and change the workouts and make them EASIER, and also add a new progression, like starting with 4-4-4 (CV, hills, fast stuff) and at absolute maximum do 6-6-6, but if I have a 6-6-6, the second workout would be very moderate and the long run would be shorter and easy in the same week. Cya!
Phil - where do you find the presentation where Tom quantifies stress levels ? It looks interesting. Also good to know you aren't hurt - checked out your strava and saw that you're putting in good work.
Phil, I feel for you. Having a chronic injury that never really goes away and is only manageable is not a fun way to live.
We give you crap, but if you want help, we have resources and knowledgable people here who can help you.
Don't accept that your shin splints will never go away! You most likely have some functional weakness somewhere down the chain that is causing them. People more knowledgable than me can help pinpoint what may be causing this, but my first inclination would be to do a self-check on your overall mobility and flexibility in terms of quads, hips, hamstrings, etc. If you lack hip mobility/strength, that's going to have a trickle down effect through your lower body.
Geten wrote:
He is a very typical compulsive trainer. I was just like that my self during my best years. My coach had told med to do 10x400 at a certain pace. If I felt good I would do 15 even if I, deep inside, knew that it was completely idiotic. Afterwards I would always come up with a bunch of excuses:
My coach had underestimated my fitness, it couldn´t be harmful to do more if you were feeling good etc.
You need to know that I was a professional video gamer (esports). In a video game, usually playing more = better. I got my sleep down to 4 hours a night, and would play anytime I'm not on school. I got by with less than 1000 calories a day during that time. You need to have a certain mentality to become the best at a video game.
The problem is, in running more and more isn't always better. My bones can only handle so much at their current strength. That's why I'm not a fan of the guy that recommended shin splint exercises - first, I've done them for years and never noticed any difference. But even if they would make it better, if I doesn't fix the ROOT of my problem - training too hard/much, always at the limit - I would just get another stress fracture somewhere else. I had two stress fractures in my feet, many stress reactions/muscular pain in my shins, and a sacral stress fracture. That's not just one weak spot, that's more of a sign of constantly training near the limit.
People here recommended me to do fewer reps in my workouts, shorter tempos etc. But I didn't listen because I thought they just want me to train too easy so I don't reach my goals. But now I had to pay the price for it, my training got severely interrupted and I couldn't "keep the ball rolling".
I literally made the same mistake as last year, where I ran all workouts at too fast paces - just that this year, I did way too much volume, and each workout was a very big stimulus. According to Tinman's presentation, 5x200 in 32-31-30-29-28 that I did (which is probably around 800m pace to 600m pace or even faster) with 200m jog rest is a BIG stimulus by itself, and I did that AFTER 5x1600 in 3:27/k, which is above threshold, almost at CV. So that workout by itself (done 3 days before the 10k TT), that was supposed to be easy since it's "just threshold" was something very big due to the paces I ran.
The great news is that swimming pools opened again. So I can replace most doubles, and I also like doing core strength in the outside area of the pool. That will increase my training load without pounding. The last few months were hard for me, I don't enjoy cycling anymore (since I almost crashed due to multiple death wobbles on a ride and lots of lifetime miles) and pools/gyms were closed. The swimming might even help the recovery of legs, in addition to staying lean.
You may have a build up of scar tissue, that is causing stress in the calf/shin area.
It may be worthwhile getting some deep sports massage on the calves. You can do this yourself with a foam roller, but someone trained in sports massage will be much more effective (and painful!).
Alfie wrote:
You may have a build up of scar tissue, that is causing stress in the calf/shin area.
It may be worthwhile getting some deep sports massage on the calves. You can do this yourself with a foam roller, but someone trained in sports massage will be much more effective (and painful!).
In 2010, when it was chronic and I never exceeded 15 mpw, I had a great PT. He said that the muscles there are incredibly tight, and did a lot of massaging sessions to get them lose (painful, but I enjoy pain). Also recommended self-massage and a ball to roll it out. But back then, it helped and loosened them up, but as soon as I would do one or two runs again the problem came back. He also said my muscle tone is from a sprinter.
The only fix for me was walking/running twice a week really slow for 1-2 years. After I was able to build mileage. My running form was always good and efficient. I just had incredibly weak bones and muscles due to being completely sedentary as PC gamer for many years. Never saw the sun for 10 years, imagine my vitamin D levels at that time.
After my mileage increase starting in 01/2018 (with 15 mpw), I would always get shin splints and lower leg fatigue every few months. That is still the case but to me now it's just a case of doing too much, too soon. I'm literally running myself into the ground. And I had many other injuries as well, so fixing the shin splints and training like an elite again would just bring on the next problem somewhere else.
The culprit is I'm against easing back the training load or taking a day off. I would try to hammer through my training plan, no matter what. What starts with shin pain, gets worse and worse as I'm not running with skill anymore, just slogging through runs and grinding through workouts. There was huge swelling on my left medial (inner) shin, and it took 7 days to finally not hurt extremely during the one-leg-hop test which was a long time. Full rest, like recommended here is just as bad - that would make me gain weight, and make my muscles, tendons and bones weaker again - then it might heal 100%, but I'd easily get it again. So right now I'm (hopefully) in a good spot to start another big training block.