You can either burn more energy or less depending on your engine. It’s not simply ‘yes you are always burning X’.
Youre also being incredibly un specific as to who you are discussing at any time here. Are you discussing world class 5k/10k guys? Are you discussing long distance triathletes? The types of energy demands for those two disciplines is going to be radically different
Why does threshold occur at roughly 60% VO2 max for some, and over 80% for others? Being able to shuttle lactate and remove H+ ions better is the only explanation I’ve seen.
It's a nonsensical ramble. Shuttling lactate and removing hydrogen ions are basic metabolic functions. It's what you do with those and other metabolites that determines efficiency. Running is a skill. IT'S A SKILL. It gets better with practice. You become more energy efficient.
Yeah I literally said we weren’t talking about efficiency. I specifically pointed out that you can increase SPEED at lactate threshold by improving running economy whether that be better form, enhanced neuromuscular coordination by running more at specific paces, or hill sprints, certain weight training/plyometric exercises if done right, etc. Everybody knows that. Idk who you’re preaching this too. We literally all agree. But we’re saying that if you keep VO2 max and running economy constant, people still have increases in lactate threshold speed because their threshold happens at a higher percentage of their VO2 max- likely due to these ‘basic metabolic functions’.
My guess is that too much of anything is bad for you. How much is too much. From a scientific stand point running at lactate acid threshold means running at a speed where you are both producing lactate acid and burning it at an even amount. The production of lactate acid also produces other by production that will affect you negatively. Runners with more slow twitch type muscle fibers will struggle less than more fast twitch type runners.
It depends how damaging it is. Those with ACE ll is predisposed for mitocontria without training, but slower speed. For ACE bb its the other way around. Both can become champions at distance running, but those with bb need more time building.
It's a nonsensical ramble. Shuttling lactate and removing hydrogen ions are basic metabolic functions. It's what you do with those and other metabolites that determines efficiency. Running is a skill. IT'S A SKILL. It gets better with practice. You become more energy efficient.
Yeah I literally said we weren’t talking about efficiency. I specifically pointed out that you can increase SPEED at lactate threshold by improving running economy whether that be better form, enhanced neuromuscular coordination by running more at specific paces, or hill sprints, certain weight training/plyometric exercises if done right, etc. Everybody knows that. Idk who you’re preaching this too. We literally all agree. But we’re saying that if you keep VO2 max and running economy constant, people still have increases in lactate threshold speed because their threshold happens at a higher percentage of their VO2 max- likely due to these ‘basic metabolic functions’.
You can either burn more energy or less depending on your engine. It’s not simply ‘yes you are always burning X’.
Youre also being incredibly un specific as to who you are discussing at any time here. Are you discussing world class 5k/10k guys? Are you discussing long distance triathletes? The types of energy demands for those two disciplines is going to be radically different
What's your point exactly? That people are different?
Yeah I literally said we weren’t talking about efficiency. I specifically pointed out that you can increase SPEED at lactate threshold by improving running economy whether that be better form, enhanced neuromuscular coordination by running more at specific paces, or hill sprints, certain weight training/plyometric exercises if done right, etc. Everybody knows that. Idk who you’re preaching this too. We literally all agree. But we’re saying that if you keep VO2 max and running economy constant, people still have increases in lactate threshold speed because their threshold happens at a higher percentage of their VO2 max- likely due to these ‘basic metabolic functions’.
You're contradicting yourself.
Lol, okay, you’re for sure trolling. It’s annoying, but you got us going for a bit, so kudos I guess.
we’re saying that if you keep VO2 max and running economy constant, people still have increases in lactate threshold speed because their threshold happens at a higher percentage of their VO2 max- likely due to these ‘basic metabolic functions’.
That is incorrect. The improvement isn't a metabolic, it's mechanical.
Joe Hobbyjogger has no problem walking uphill for an hour at 93% VO2max. It's a tough workout, but it's doable on a good day.
And his VO2 Peak isn't going to improve either. That's not how metabolism works in a healthy person.
The reason he can't run fast for one hour is his lack of sufficient training to be able to maintain a powerful stride at that intensity. He can run fast, but not for long. Not yet. It's going to take a few years and many thousands of miles to develop that skill.
You don't need to run hard or anywhere near the "aerobic upper limit" to increase mitochondrial enzymes or stroke volume in heart. 65-72% is good enough. There is no reason to increase heart rate values as your base building progresses. Keep it easy, 65-72%. It's very simple.
However, also note temperature/humidity/terrain changes.
That is incorrect. The improvement isn't a metabolic, it's mechanical.
Joe Hobbyjogger has no problem walking uphill for an hour at 93% VO2max. It's a tough workout, but it's doable on a good day.
And his VO2 Peak isn't going to improve either. That's not how metabolism works in a healthy person.
The reason he can't run fast for one hour is his lack of sufficient training to be able to maintain a powerful stride at that intensity. He can run fast, but not for long. Not yet. It's going to take a few years and many thousands of miles to develop that skill.
You just keep repeating things everyone agrees with, but ignoring the fact that two things can be true at the same time.
We all know that performance is sport specific. So yes, if my VO2 max is 100 and I can hold 80 for 60 mins while running, but I can only hold 65 for 60 minutes while cycling, then it's probably safe to conclude there is a mechanical component limiting me in cycling. Because I never cycle, I don't have the nueromusclar capability to continuously produce that high of an output that demands that much O2 consumption. Just for fun, what does this mean exactly? If I can cycle at 80 for 2 minutes, why can't I hold it for 60 mins since I know I have the cardiovascular capacity to sustain this level of exercise??
Even though running and cycling both use the legs, they don't use the exact same muscle fibers equally and in the same patterns. When I'm running at high outputs, I likely recruit more muscle fibers to share the workload and help me get more overall output. We know in weightlifting, nueromuscular adaptations take place quickly. *Part* of those adaptations is you can recruit more motor units and thus lift more weight even though you didn't actually gain any muscle. So I'd imagine that while I'm running at high outputs, I'm able to recruit more motor units so I have more muscle fibers to "do work". But these muscles all need oxygen. So since I have more fibers working than I do while cycling, I'm naturally able to consume more oxygen. *Note that this is when I'm at high output levels. When you get better at a skill, you can actually recruit less fibers at lower workloads. Then you're able to tap into fresh fibers when you reach an intensity where you need them. At least that's what the scientists say when it comes to weightlifting.
But wait, I established I can recruit enough motor units to use 80 ml/kg/min of O2 for 2 minutes, so why am I not able to hold it for 60 minutes? I know I have the cardiorespiratory capacity to supply the O2 because I do it while running. So what gives? Oh yeah, I have less motor units working, so those muscles are working extra hard and can only consume O2 so fast. So eventually, they have to rely more on the anaerobic process and produce more lactate and H+ and eventually cause fatigue. *There's also other reasons for fatigue, but I'm trying to keep it simple and relatively concise. So with less total motor units working to contribute to output and consume oxygen, I reach my lactate threshold at a lower percentage of my VO2 max. Did I just prove your point???? It sure sounds like it. But no, I didn't, because two things can be true at the same time.
Metabolic factors also count for something. Let's say you've been running for 20 years and you want to be able to hold 80% of your VO2 max speed for an hour. If it was purely mechanical, why couldn't you just do a ton of strides at that pace? So 20 second runs at that pace, followed by 3 mins rest. And you repeat that for hours. You would have very high quality practice of exactly the 'skill' you are trying to master. But does anybody only do that? No, because they're not 5 year-old binary thinkers and they understand that mechanical and metabolic changes can happen at the same time and you have to train both. Your metabolic system has to be trained to handle and buffer lactate and H+. Again, this is why supplements like sodium bicarbonate and beta-alanine actually can help because they help your body do this. So while you're training your mechanical system to allow you to hold a higher workload, you also should train your metabolic systems. It's not contradictory to recognize the very simple principle that multiple factors can be involved at once.
Would you people stop p*ssy footing around and give a REAL answer to my question.
Search the threads. There’s one about 15-20 years where some coaches discuss this pretty in depth. What I got out of it was that workouts producing high lactate levels for a significant portion of time (not just a single rep) can temporarily impair the aerobic capacity of the mitochondria for up to 10 days. So if you keep repeating this- you’re aerobic abilities would probably suffer. But, I think we’d assume the mitochondria will adapt so the exact same workout at the same paces may not impair mitochondria as much over time. There’s some studies about high intensity improving the quality of the mitochondria. Anyways, when peaking for a longer race such as a 10k-marathon (or even a 5k) you probably don’t want to do a killer workout building up tons of lactate within 10 days of the key race. But I don’t think ”destroy mitochondria” is ever the right description.
phoenix,it has been established in recent years, by excercise physiologists, that mitochondria is of crucial importance in distance running, and that correct training is necessary to boost mitochondria.you talked about mitoch...
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