Raddison wrote:
I am not sure I would agree. Many notorious dopers have managed to rehabilitate themselves to varying degrees.
Don’t forget Regina Jacobs. She’s a real estate agent now. It’s clear she’s doing well.
https://www.homesbyregina.com/Raddison wrote:
I am not sure I would agree. Many notorious dopers have managed to rehabilitate themselves to varying degrees.
Don’t forget Regina Jacobs. She’s a real estate agent now. It’s clear she’s doing well.
https://www.homesbyregina.com/casual obsever wrote:
Jeff Wigand wrote:
Why are so many of best women's results from decades ago?
a) Because one had to cut back on testo around 1990 (but then EPO came);
b) because one had to cut back on EPO around 2005;
c) because one had to cut back on blood transfusions around 2009.
"cut back on", not: stop using. E.g. we know that one can still use 200 mL transfusions, instead of going full throttle 2x 500 mL. Unless of cause, you are not part of the ABP.
But that is a good point: many of the best women's results are from the dirty roid era of the 80s, especially on shorter distances, and many of the best women's results on longer distances are from 93 to 2008 during the EPO/full throttle blood transfusion era. Goes to show how dirty the sport at the top is.
And now? Since a few years, we start seeing the women threatening or even breaking the old records.
WR history:
800: 83 record still valid - 36 years and counting
1500: 93 record broken in 2016 - 23 years
5000: 2008 record still valid - just before the ABP
10000: 93 record broken in 2016 - 23 years
Marathon: 2003 record still valid - before reliable EPO test + before ABP
(female only: 2005 record broken in 2017) - 12 years
Quite a gap across these distances from 2008 - 2016...
So... new drugs on the market? Or have training and technology improved so much that the ladies can finally beat the old drug cheats' times?
+1
LoneStarXC wrote:
Raddison wrote:
I am not sure I would agree. Many notorious dopers have managed to rehabilitate themselves to varying degrees.
Don’t forget Regina Jacobs. She’s a real estate agent now. It’s clear she’s doing well.
https://www.homesbyregina.com/
Hilarious! ? I bett you have a point there.
Anyone know how Kiptum looked at the finish line of the HM WR performance last year? And also when he smoked a 2:04 at Abu Dhabi? ?
Cram, Ovett, Paula: blood doper, blood doper, EPO.
Coevett wrote:
No it's a false comparison. EPO can turn a sub elite into a GOAT. No ped can do that for an NFL guy, or turn a boxing or MMA journeyman into a GOAT. Given what we know now about the lack of testing in East Africa (and formerly North Africa), it seems beyond stupidity to believe that's it's a level playing field, even with the dubious assumption that ALL athletes will dope given the opportunity.
Furthermore, I can appreciate that in sports like MMA the peds enhance the spectacle. You could also argue that they allow fighters to recover from the beatings they take in both the ring/octagon and in sparring. In running all that peds do is make the results completely fraudulent.
Doping apologists like you are disgusting, and when they appear to have connections to the sport, it's truly disturbing.
Coevett wrote:
And let's also not forget that not only is the risk of being caught much, much greater in the West, the shame and the aftermath is much worse too. Seems in Kenya, Morocco, and Ethiopia, nobody really cares about an athlete cheating. Look at the love being shown to Asbel Kiprop for threatening to use his gun on people if the IAAF doesn't let him back. Whereas in the West, your ability to lead a normal life or earn any kind of living will be effectively over if you get exposed as a doper.
"The love being shown to Asbel Kiprop for threatening to use his gun on people"? What? You mean people urging him not to kill himself and get help?
Dril wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
The argument for defending Kipchoge against doping suspicion is little more than that he is simply a brilliant talent and therefore need not dope. This of course is the perfect defence for all successful dopers; the more incredible the performance the more that this is simply attributable to superior talent. Apparently, only inferior talents will dope, even though we see with many of those eventually caught - Armstrong, Jones, Johnson et al - they were streets ahead of their competition. The fundamental flaw that lies behind this thinking is the failure to understand that everybody can benefit from doping, even great talents - as Kipchoge undoubtedly is. Kiptum
has just proven again the smoke and mirrors that is so often behind outstanding performance today. Drugs are the ultimate deception - and as we see here, many are deceived. And willingly.
This is not the argument.
Yet you are unable to offer an alternative.
under a bridge wrote:
Coevett wrote:
And let's also not forget that not only is the risk of being caught much, much greater in the West, the shame and the aftermath is much worse too. Seems in Kenya, Morocco, and Ethiopia, nobody really cares about an athlete cheating. Look at the love being shown to Asbel Kiprop for threatening to use his gun on people if the IAAF doesn't let him back. Whereas in the West, your ability to lead a normal life or earn any kind of living will be effectively over if you get exposed as a doper.
"The love being shown to Asbel Kiprop for threatening to use his gun on people"? What? You mean people urging him not to kill himself and get help?
He must always lie. He can't help it.
Coevett wrote:
Furthermore, I can appreciate that in sports like MMA the peds enhance the spectacle. You could also argue that they allow fighters to recover from the beatings they take in both the ring/octagon and in sparring. In running all that peds do is make the results completely fraudulent.
Doping apologists like you are disgusting, and when they appear to have connections to the sport, it's truly disturbing.
[/quote]
EPO also helps runners recover more quickly from workouts.
So according to you MMA fighters should be allowed to use PEDs to recover more quickly but not runners...
Proof that you are a disgusting doping apologist.
Disclaimer: I am against the use of forbidden substances by any athletes in any sport.
El Coevetto wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Furthermore, I can appreciate that in sports like MMA the peds enhance the spectacle. You could also argue that they allow fighters to recover from the beatings they take in both the ring/octagon and in sparring. In running all that peds do is make the results completely fraudulent.
Doping apologists like you are disgusting, and when they appear to have connections to the sport, it's truly disturbing.
EPO also helps runners recover more quickly from workouts.
So according to you MMA fighters should be allowed to use PEDs to recover more quickly but not runners...
Proof that you are a disgusting doping apologist.
Disclaimer: I am against the use of forbidden substances by any athletes in any sport.[/quote]
I know. WTF is he talking about?? one could easily make the counterargument: in running, all PED's do is make you faster, so.....it's cheating, but no one is getting hurt. In MMA, it's a LOT worse, because a 'Roid freak could literally kill some poor clean guy, who, without the PED disadvantage, might save himself a life-threatening beating.
Clearly Coevett has used PED's before. He already admitted he was big meathead lifter trying to get as big as possible, and that he would have no qualms of reaching his goals with unnatural and illegal aides (i.e., PED's). The only thing that supposedly stopped him....his fear of needles. Right. His ego would not let him be smaller than some other meathead gym rats, so I am sure he doped himself. And he also makes excuses for the use of PED's in other meathead sports like MMA, so he seems fully ok with it. Once a doper, always a dope.
Tyrone ReXXXing wrote:
I know. WTF is he talking about?? one could easily make the counterargument: in running, all PED's do is make you faster, so.....it's cheating, but no one is getting hurt.
People can die from the side effects of PEDS.
LoneStarXC wrote:
Tyrone ReXXXing wrote:
I know. WTF is he talking about?? one could easily make the counterargument: in running, all PED's do is make you faster, so.....it's cheating, but no one is getting hurt.
People can die from the side effects of PEDS.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
hold the phone wrote:
Taro wrote:Yes, I understand how increasing the concentration of red cells in the blood would allow an athlete to run faster aerobically. But does that really result in a shift from glycogen (glucose) to fats as metabolic fuel? Can you cite any evidence for that claim?
If you'd like to learn about exercise metabolism, there's a pretty good open-access review here:
https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(15)00283-1Note this section:
"Furthermore, there is consensus that the primary determinants of the balance of carbohydrate (muscle and liver glycogen and blood glucose from ingested carbohydrate and gluconeogenesis) and lipid (adipose and intramuscular triglycerides as well as blood-borne free fatty acids [FFAs] and triglycerides) fuels for active muscle are the relative exercise intensity (expressed as a percentage of an individual’s maximum oxygen uptake [VO2max]..."
The key point is that the mix of fat and carb depends on the *relative* intensity as a fraction of VO2max. So if you increase VO2max, a given running speed will have a lower relative intensity, and thus rely more heavily on fat than it did before.
I would agree with you up to the last sentence: “...thus rely more heavily on fat....” It does not follow from lower relative intensity. I believe your citation is misleading, essentially a bit of scientific demagogy.-:)
Raddison wrote:
Coevett wrote:
.... Whereas in the West, your ability to lead a normal life or earn any kind of living will be effectively over if you get exposed as a doper.
I am not sure I would agree. Many notorious dopers have managed to rehabilitate themselves to varying degrees.
A British example would be David Jenkins, the 400M runner. He has admitted to using steroids for most of his career including when he won the silver medal at the 1972 Olympics. After retirement he became involved in drug trafficking in the 1980s and it is estimated that at one time he was responsible for up to 70% of the steroids trafficked in the United States. He was ultimately caught and sentenced to seven years in jail. After release he founded NEXT Proteins, a supplement company, which, through its various brands, has a significant share of the sports supplement market. He is now very wealthy.
Barry Bonds, the baseball player who set numerous records while on steroids and was sentenced to 30 days of house arrest, two years of probation and 250 hours of community service, for an obstruction of justice conviction is now back in the baseball world. In 2017, Bonds officially rejoined the Giants organization as a special advisor to the CEO and in 2017 Bonds was added to the Giants Wall of Fame. In 2018, the San Francisco Giants announced their intentions to retire his number 25 jersey. He still hasn't been elected to the hall of fame but his name but the percentage that vote for him to be inducted has steadily increased over the years.
And everybody's favourite, Lance Armstrong, is slowly working back into public favour. Since 2016 he has been building a media and event organizing company that is starting to attract corporate interest. His company, called WEDU, hosts two podcasts — The Move and The Forward — puts on bike races in Texas and Colorado, sells merchandise through an online store, and offers a $60 subscription service. The Move podcast, which provides analysis of stages of the Tour de France and other cycling races. In 2017 it was ranked in the top 10 in the sports and recreation category on Apple’s iTunes. During the 2017 Tour de France it averaged 80,000 listeners a day and accumulated more than 5 million downloads, according to WEDU. Armstrong estimated that between advertising, merchandise and subscription sales, the podcast would bring in between $700,000 and $1 million over the course of the 2018 Tour de France.
My statement might have been false but c'mon, these examples - particularly David Jenkins. Well yeah, I didn't really count on David Jenkins being able to earn a living from illegally importing 70% of steroids entering the USA. Lance Armstrong saved himself financially through the luck of investing in Uber (or some other billion dollar startup - at least that's his story). He's had to pay back millions so, all in all, he's lost out financially, although in today's online world it's easier for a guy whose reputation has been smashed to continue to make money if he's smart enough. I can't imagine, for example, Laura Muir if he was doping and got caught, being able to continue her career.
BTW, I haven't read many of the replies posted (not since Tyrone chimed in and no doubt played his usual race card), but I will say that the two positions you (Raddison) are taking perhaps makes you the worst doping apologist here - and that's quite some crown of turds to wear.
1 - Everybody dopes, because an informal poll conducted by one man found that a majority of athletes would be willing to die from doping to win.
2 - So let them get on with it. Every 14 year old young athlete should be aware that you have to risk killing yourself with drugs to compete as a professional, so JUST SAY YES if you coach says JUST DO IT!
It's hardly any wonder that so few non-African talents are taking up the sport and persisting with it through their teens. Even if that stupid poll was true and 90% or whatever of American Olympians were prepared to die cheating, there's a huge selection bias because no doubt far more (and often far more talented) athletes gave up in their teens because they didn't want to risk their lives in a dirty sport. So this would explain why white times have declined as Rekrunner correctly points out, and the one European in the EPO era able to compete was a doper who got caught.
Tyrone ReXXXing wrote:
El Coevetto wrote:
EPO also helps runners recover more quickly from workouts.
So according to you MMA fighters should be allowed to use PEDs to recover more quickly but not runners...
Proof that you are a disgusting doping apologist.
Disclaimer: I am against the use of forbidden substances by any athletes in any sport.
I know. WTF is he talking about?? one could easily make the counterargument: in running, all PED's do is make you faster, so.....it's cheating, but no one is getting hurt. In MMA, it's a LOT worse, because a 'Roid freak could literally kill some poor clean guy, who, without the PED disadvantage, might save himself a life-threatening beating.
Clearly Coevett has used PED's before. He already admitted he was big meathead lifter trying to get as big as possible, and that he would have no qualms of reaching his goals with unnatural and illegal aides (i.e., PED's). The only thing that supposedly stopped him....his fear of needles. Right. His ego would not let him be smaller than some other meathead gym rats, so I am sure he doped himself. And he also makes excuses for the use of PED's in other meathead sports like MMA, so he seems fully ok with it. Once a doper, always a dope.[/quote]
GFY you immature moron. I never said I approved of peds in MMA. I call out dopers in MMA forums just like I do here. My point was that a doper like Jon Jones would still probably be a top 10 fighter clean, whereas if Kipchoge is doping, he probably wouldn't even be a top 50 guy clean. I was actually pointing out sickening irony that our sport - which is being ruined by doping even more than any other sport - has actually more doping apologist fans than a sport like MMA.
How the hell does considering taking steroids when I was an amatuer (non competing) body builder make me a doping apologist you mentally challenged imbecile? I have never competed in any sport, and the closest I have is a couple of Parkruns this year. Even while competing in Parkruns, which aren't technically even races, I wouldn't take any peds. If non-sportsmen want to take drugs to improve their physique or health, then that's great. This has no relation to doping in sport and my anti-doping position with regards to distance running.
The disturbing thing is presumably you're in your twenties as you've been posting here for years, but you appear in every way to be a not too bright 13 year old. You're an embarrassment even to your fellow doping apologists here. I'm not going to even read any of your childish posts anymore. You almost make me want El K to come back. At least there was some (not much, but some) intelligence behind his doping apologist buffoonary.
Coevett wrote:
GFY you immature moron. I never said I approved of peds in MMA. I call out dopers in MMA forums just like I do here. My point was that a doper like Jon Jones would still probably be a top 10 fighter clean, whereas if Kipchoge is doping, he probably wouldn't even be a top 50 guy clean. I was actually pointing out sickening irony that our sport - which is being ruined by doping even more than any other sport - has actually more doping apologist fans than a sport like MMA.
How the hell does considering taking steroids when I was an amatuer (non competing) body builder make me a doping apologist you mentally challenged imbecile? I have never competed in any sport, and the closest I have is a couple of Parkruns this year. Even while competing in Parkruns, which aren't technically even races, I wouldn't take any peds. If non-sportsmen want to take drugs to improve their physique or health, then that's great. This has no relation to doping in sport and my anti-doping position with regards to distance running.
The disturbing thing is presumably you're in your twenties as you've been posting here for years, but you appear in every way to be a not too bright 13 year old. You're an embarrassment even to your fellow doping apologists here. I'm not going to even read any of your childish posts anymore. You almost make me want El K to come back. At least there was some (not much, but some) intelligence behind his doping apologist buffoonary.
+1
Tyrone roided himself so much in High School he still dumps out so many chemicals that the pro runner on the other side of his city is getting his ABP flagged as suspicious. Even juiced to the gills bald by 16 Tyone still failed to get beyond his school track team and now can't break 15 seconds for the 100m due to massive weight gain since running out of money to pay for his gear . The emergence of Matthew Boling has been the last straw, and his increasingly erratic behaviour has put him on suicide watch. If we can give a little love to Asbel, let's give a little love to Tyrone. Don't do anything stupid Tyrone. You're a doper, a dunce, and a complete failure in life. But you still have a lot to live for - namely, trolling online 24/7 while watching FapTube, and bucket after bucket of KFC.
Jeff Wigand wrote:
When did he disappear?
2012
4x 3000m
1x 2 mile
3x 5000m
1x 5km
2x 10000m
2x half marathon
1x cross country race
2013
3x half marathon
2x marathon
2014
1x 10km
1x half marathon
2x marathons
2015
1x half marathon
2x marathon
2016
1x half marathon
2x marathon
2017
2x marathon
2018
2x marathon
Thanks for this list. I was just discussing with friends over a run yesterday, when the last time was that Kipchoge raced anything other than a marathon. Seemed like a long time. While not on the topic of this thread, what I find amusing is that Rupp and the BTC guys get blasted for racing so infrequently, yet here you have a guy who over the past two years, has only raced TWICE per year. And going back four years, he’s only raced 3x per year.
Now granted, he is racing at a high level, but still, it’s less than the athletes in the groups people here are critical of.
What I also find interesting, is that Eliud doesn’t feel the need to run a tune up race prior to his marathons, like many other elites do. He has complete confidence in his ability from the training he does, apparently.
best giver wrote:
LoneStarXC wrote:
People can die from the side effects of PEDS.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
You can’t run if you’re dead. ?♀️
imarunr wrote:
Jeff Wigand wrote:
When did he disappear?
2012
4x 3000m
1x 2 mile
3x 5000m
1x 5km
2x 10000m
2x half marathon
1x cross country race
2013
3x half marathon
2x marathon
2014
1x 10km
1x half marathon
2x marathons
2015
1x half marathon
2x marathon
2016
1x half marathon
2x marathon
2017
2x marathon
2018
2x marathon
Thanks for this list. I was just discussing with friends over a run yesterday, when the last time was that Kipchoge raced anything other than a marathon. Seemed like a long time. While not on the topic of this thread, what I find amusing is that Rupp and the BTC guys get blasted for racing so infrequently, yet here you have a guy who over the past two years, has only raced TWICE per year. And going back four years, he’s only raced 3x per year.
Now granted, he is racing at a high level, but still, it’s less than the athletes in the groups people here are critical of.
What I also find interesting, is that Eliud doesn’t feel the need to run a tune up race prior to his marathons, like many other elites do. He has complete confidence in his ability from the training he does, apparently.
FWIW, if Rupp and the BTC guys were winning two majors a year, they wouldn't be getting blasted for infrequent racing.
Bad Wigins wrote:
Anonimo veneziano wrote:
The answer to this is AICAR, which enhances lipidic power.
Is that what Lance used to snag 3rd at age 38? And beat that dork named after me...
I know a talented guy who was doped up to his eyeballs and Wiggins beat him.