VIOLAH JEPCHUMBA, a 65-minute half-marathoner and Ken-born athlete. busted for EPO.

Another Morrocan doping under the colors of Bahrain. ? Sadik Mikhou nailed on ABP anomalies (6th at the 2017 WCs). Are there any athletes running for Bahrain clean?

rekrunner wrote:

I would love nothing more than to say "correlation does not imply causation", but we don't even have a correlation.

casual obsever wrote:

Yes - he probably learned about "correlation does not imply causation" before getting kicked out of high school.

What he fails to realize (better: admit), that we know quite a bit about the mechanism of this causation. This is not like the famous case where the number of pirates decrease while the birthrate goes down.

Well, we would if homeostasis and thermoregulation, or maybe even hyperthermia wouldn't stop the EPO cheats from improving.

You aren't in the we group Gary, that's why.

Scientific peer reviewed studies are excellent ways to show cause and effect. When real world examples tend in the same direction as the studies, this is not a proof, but a confirmation. You continue to ignore all of the evidence and believe what you want to based on your faith.

rekrunner wrote:

Yes -- there is always consistency. Examples are a bad way to show cause and effect. You cannot do it with 1 example, nor 10 examples, nor 50 examples.

Subway Surfers wrote:

But I'm not generalizing, if you look above the thread is about "VIOLAH JEPCHUMBA, a 65-minute half-marathoner" but you said the same in the Kiprop threads, the Bett threads, the Jebet thread and the Sumgong threads. Notice the consistent theme?

casual obsever wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

But I'm not generalizing, if you look above the thread is about "VIOLAH JEPCHUMBA, a 65-minute half-marathoner" but you said the same in the Kiprop threads, the Bett threads, the Jebet thread and the Sumgong threads. Notice the consistent theme?

Yes - he probably learned about "correlation does not imply causation" before getting kicked out of high school.

What he fails to realize (better: admit), that we know quite a bit about the mechanism of this causation. This is not like the famous case where the number of pirates decrease while the birthrate goes down.

Well, we would if homeostasis and thermoregulation, or maybe even hyperthermia wouldn't stop the EPO cheats from improving.

Only the studies which are designed to eliminate external effects with techniques like double-blinding and controls. I do not ignore the evidence, but give them the full weight they deserve, and not more.

Rekrunner is a liar wrote:

Scientific peer reviewed studies are excellent ways to show cause and effect. When real world examples tend in the same direction as the studies, this is not a proof, but a confirmation.

You continue to ignore all of the evidence and believe what you want to based on your faith.

rekrunner wrote:

Only the studies which are designed to eliminate external effects with techniques like double-blinding and controls.

I do not ignore the evidence, but give them the full weight they deserve, and not more.

Rekrunner is a liar wrote:

Scientific peer reviewed studies are excellent ways to show cause and effect. When real world examples tend in the same direction as the studies, this is not a proof, but a confirmation.

You continue to ignore all of the evidence and believe what you want to based on your faith.

And if double blinding works then you need to move to triple and so on desperately trying to avoid the truth.

There was a recent double-blinded EPO study, which I accepted the result as truth.

physics defiant wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Only the studies which are designed to eliminate external effects with techniques like double-blinding and controls.

I do not ignore the evidence, but give them the full weight they deserve, and not more.

And if double blinding works then you need to move to triple and so on desperately trying to avoid the truth.

Yeah, and came up with your own truth.

Then you don't even have correlation.

physics defiant wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I would love nothing more than to say "correlation does not imply causation", but we don't even have a correlation.

You aren't in the we group ...[/quote]

I accepted the finding of the study, without coming up with anything else.

physics defiant wrote:

Yeah, and came up with your own truth.

Except for 9 pages of obfuscation. That's something.

Thanks for the simple explanation of mitochondria, but it really doesn't address anything I said in my post.

m!ndweak wrote:

well here you go rek, i will try to keep it 3rd grade level so you can hopefully understand

I can agree you are between me and mindweak on a spectrum of left to right, however, as a recent example, after reading your conclusions on Rupp, Farah, and Bolt, that "my doubts for those three are very very small", you don't strike me as the voice of reasoned moderation. It's not like these are the only examples, but it is part of a general pattern of consistently viewing circumstances in the worst possible light. Your example of when the 1:09 to 1:05 runner started cheating, ending with "Exceptions are rekrunner and Canova" is a strawman.

casual obsever wrote:

Right - if you wouldn't constantly be trolling around so extremely, you would've have noticed long time ago that I hold a much more moderate position than say, you or mindweak. Yet you love to pretend that I hold the most extreme position for whatever trolling reason of yours.

For example, you are the king of strawman "arguments", yet even here when you openly agree with me, you must accuse me literally in the same paragraph of "trying to fabricate strawman positions".

As a child did you frequently use the old " I know you are but what am I " retort?

Yes ,the first was Roberto Barbi, I live near him and he's now 53 and still in great shape. Sometime I see him at local races

and his dream is to come back to races but has suspension till 2032!!! He wants to try to beat his record of the italian classic ultra 50k Pistoia-Abetone.

It was many years ago after a big negative split at Firenze marathon that coach Renato Canova talked to him to be in the National Italian team for I think Europe cup competition. Canova gave to him a training program for the marathon but Roberto

told him that he couldnt follow the program cos he had a factory job and he wasnt able to do so many miles and train two times a day.

Then Barbi went in a club that helped him with the work so he had all the time just to train.

But at the same time he begun to take all type of peds.

Roberto Barbi always said that before taking peds had a pb of 2:14 then he went to 2:10

Now the point of view of Renato Canova ( and sure if he wants can tell you better than me) is that he made 2:10 not because

he was taking Epo but because he was training with a lot of miles and two times a day.

Roberto Barbi in many interviews has always said that after taking those peds he was feeling like a superman, never tired,

quick recover after hard training, he was feeling like wake in the middle of night and start to run.

But he also talked about the downside of taking those peds, : addiction, depression, insomnia, nausea etc.

rekrunner wrote:

I can agree you are between me and mindweak on a spectrum of left to right, however, as a recent example, after reading your conclusions on Rupp, Farah, and Bolt, that "my doubts for those three are very very small", you don't strike me as the voice of reasoned moderation.

For an extremist like you, every reasoned moderate thought such as this one looks indeed extreme:

"Likely dopers are by definition "highly unlikely" to be clean, therefore I am sure that they are dopers."

In reality, an extreme thought would be:

"These are professional runners, therefore they are dopers."

On the other side of the spectrum, an extreme thought would be:

"These likely dopers are clean, because that could have been caused by altitude, and their character is impeccable, and they never tested positive."

rekrunner wrote:

Thanks for the simple explanation of mitochondria, but it really doesn't address anything I said in my post.

m!ndweak wrote:

well here you go rek, i will try to keep it 3rd grade level so you can hopefully understand

yeah i dont know what you were trying to address, something about why would more mitochondria effect how much C02 the body gets ride off...but whatever the point you were hoping to stump me on is irrelevant.

just like renato changes his lie on EPO over the years, now the argument with the deniers is that rbc count doesnt go up much so thats why EPO cant work....well now we know that SYNTHETIC EPO, aka rhEPO is a chimera engineering, with the EPO genome injected into e coli bacteria, it replicates and then that cocktail is then injected into hamster cells for mass production, then packaged and sold, and then injected into kenyans. what we know from studies is rhEPO makes 3-5% gains, and SIGNIFICANTLY increases the number and size of the mitochondria, which with the added number of rbc's there is more 02 in the blood, and with more mitochondria than NORMAL, more 02 is absorbed from the blood, this in turn allows for MORE production of ATP, which allows for the muscles to FIRE, contract and extended more often, etc...while maintaining a high pace effort in aerobic while everyone else is producing lactic acid by the boatloads cause they are already in anaerobic respiration.

the RBCs are a small part of the big reason why the runners are making HUGE gains on what they themselves dubbed "rocket fuel"

interesting that renato being the greatest self proclaimed coach in the world and has the largest talent pool, cant seem to get a kenyan to beat paula rattcliffs record...rosa has been trying, but his girls got popped on that sauce that supposedly doesnt work

rekrunner wrote:

There was a recent double-blinded EPO study, which I accepted the result as truth.

What study was that?

There you go - first hand account of an elite marathoner talking about "feeling like superman, never tired, quick recovery after training."

Since marathon training & racing has got to be one of most destructive & damaging aspects of an elite athlete who pursues this discipline, PEDs are obviously effacious and not just this "belief" & "faith" BS that rekrunner keeps trolling us with.