Training Log for a 2:30ish Boston Marathon 2018

While the poster above me was not really using nice words I am off the same opinion. 4 x 2 miles will get you nowhere near optimal marathon shape. I consider everything short of ~12 miles not marathon specific and it has to be close to MP. So I will start my marathon specific workouts with 5 x 3k off of 1k medium rest and hopefully build to 23-25k total with 20-21k of it at MP. 4 x 2 miles is a nice half marathon and 10k workout, though and for sure helps the marathon by building threshold and strength at fast paces (and I will do this stuff, too, in my buildup). Just my opinion. Specific is what mimics the race very closely IMO.

back in the MF day wrote:

While the poster above me was not really using nice words I am off the same opinion. 4 x 2 miles will get you nowhere near optimal marathon shape...... 4 x 2 miles is a nice half marathon and 10k workout, though and for sure helps the marathon by building threshold and strength at fast paces (and I will do this stuff, too, in my buildup). Just my opinion. Specific is what mimics the race very closely IMO.

Any workout is a marathon workout if you do it while training for a marathon

who cares that he called it "marathon specific"

I could PR in the marathon without doing any straight-MP runs over 5 miles, I guarantee it. I could do only repeats of 800m or less and I bet I'd still be in PR shape.

And this is why I thought the topic worth discussion despite the trolling.

It really raises the issue of the different training approaches that people use. Some folks come at marathon training using a Canova style approach of lots of work at alternating paces which include the pace of your goal race or running a lot of intervals at goal race pace and shortening rest over time to increase race-pace work.

Others, particularly those of us who undertake a Daniels-style approach, don't spend very much time at marathon pace during the training cycle, but instead take a "address the theoretical limiting physiological factors" approach.

A 4 x 2 workout does that, and I wouldn't do it for shorter races, so I view it as marathon specific even though it is not part of a "specific phase" or at marathon pace. But that is a semantics issue, which isn't as important as the question of whether or not the Daniels-style approach of heavy LT emphasis can "get you [any]where near optimal marathon shape." Obviously, different people - including some well respected coaches - view that differently. I can share that I have had success with this approach, but that is anecdotal and doesn't address the issue of whether or not I would have had more success following a different approach. I will say that when I say I have had success, it means that I have come reasonably close to my goal performances which were goals were established based on my performances at shorter race distances. I figure if I am relatively close to my VDOT score for my 5k through half marathon efforts (adjusting for course and weather) at the marathon, then the approach to training probably gets me pretty close to where I could reasonably expect to be.

I did 4 x 2 miles this week and am training for Boston as well. I wouldn't call it marathon specific, but instead it is preparing me do marathon specific work. I will back off on most of the threshold work after next week when I will cap that fitness with a 3 x 5k run starting at MP and cutting down to Half pace within each rep.

Smoove will continue the LT work for the next 11 weeks, where during the last 8 I will focus on maintaining it. I feel Canova's criticism of Westerners training for a marathon like they are "preparing to train" for a marathon holds true and I have adapted my training accordingly over the years. I don't expect to get "faster" during the last 8 weeks, but instead I will prepare my body for the demands of the event. Right now doing peak LT work I am trying to push LT further away from MP.

I think running 4 x 2 miles is a great workout at this point in training. It's where you go from there that differentiates training.

I see a lot of reference to miles, splits, paces, etc....

Do not forget about spending some time running downhill and practicing that impact on your legs. Doesn't matter how fast you can run - when you start running downhill after 21, if your legs are not sufficiently conditioned, then the last 5 miles will not go well.

haven't read absolutely every post wrote:

I see a lot of reference to miles, splits, paces, etc....

Do not forget about spending some time running downhill and practicing that impact on your legs. Doesn't matter how fast you can run - when you start running downhill after 21, if your legs are not sufficiently conditioned, then the last 5 miles will not go well.

Very true. I address this in a few different ways. I think doing a few duration runs (20-26 miles) during your buildup with finishes at marathon pace over undulating hills (significant ups and downs) is important.

I also like to implement shorter marathon pace tempo runs with demanding hill circuits with ups and downs after that run to practice eccentric and concentric work on fatigued legs.

Great point.

Kudos to you guys for the civil discussion. Nowhere near a Boston 2:30 guy, but I am learning a lot from this thread. I hope such thoughtfulness stays as people get closer to the event, run the race, and then can look back and further analyze the various approaches. Keep it up!

Agreed. All of my long runs will be on a hilly 10 mile loop that I have to drive 30-35 minutes to get to (because I live in arguably the flattest state in the country). Some of those runs will be straight easy distance runs, while others will be a combo long/tempo efforts. I'd love to do more work out there, but it is just far enough away that I can only reasonably make it out there once per week.

I like this discussion, too. Always something to learn from other veterans.

And of course there are many ways to train right.

Right now I just like the thought of not too high mileage as I get older and work fulltime and to lock into MP quite often to train that exact feeling. Might be mostly a psychological thing. I just feel very confident that I will be able to run a good marathon after sessions like 4 x 5k and pretty quality overall mileage. Btw... next week I will do something close to what you did, Smoove. I plan on 2 x (3-2-1k), so 7.5 miles of work. As I am not too much into science I just hope to get some nice volume in at faster than MP to kind of make MP feel more comfy but am aware that it's basically in that LT and/or CV range and very beneficial from a metabolic point of view.

Of course we all know and agree that 8 x 1600 with rest down to 120 bpm would even be better - magic training ;)

Not sure how I can be accused of trolling, after instigating a worthwhile discussion in a dying thread that was simply becoming another place for Smoove, the workout warrior, to post his weekly workout PRs.

reed wrote:

I could PR in the marathon without doing any straight-MP runs over 5 miles, I guarantee it. I could do only repeats of 800m or less and I bet I'd still be in PR shape.

I couldn't. I am just way better off of plowing the miles and doing long tempo type workouts close to MP.

I don't wanna be a d!ck, so I apologize if I came off insulting as English is not my mother tongue. I really just wanted to point out that a 4 x 2 mile workout is not that "specific" in my opinion. It's a good workout and has it's place in a preparation but it's not going to get you ready to race your optimal 26.2 mile race. Eveyone who coaches at a good level or has run fast marathon times knows that. And Smoove will do more specific workouts like 13 miles MP and good long runs, etc too, because he is smart and knows this, too. And I am pretty damn sure he will be prepared very well come Boston.

Right, I am a workout warrior for doing cruise intervals at 5:21 pace, which is halfway between 15k pace (5:18) and half marathon pace (5:25), or roughly the pace at which I could race for an hour. Clearly pushing the limits beyond what conventional approaches call for! Got it.

reed wrote:

Any workout is a marathon workout if you do it while training for a marathon

who cares that he called it "marathon specific"

I could PR in the marathon without doing any straight-MP runs over 5 miles, I guarantee it. I could do only repeats of 800m or less and I bet I'd still be in PR shape.

Wow. I didn't realize you were so such a running god. All this time while you've posting in all of the various subXXX threads I had no idea you had enough ability to train like a moran and still PR. Good for you. I can't wait to watch you crush 2:30 in Boston. It will be a day for the record books, kid!

DunkinDonutsDanny wrote:

reed wrote:

Any workout is a marathon workout if you do it while training for a marathon

who cares that he called it "marathon specific"

I could PR in the marathon without doing any straight-MP runs over 5 miles, I guarantee it. I could do only repeats of 800m or less and I bet I'd still be in PR shape.

Wow. I didn't realize you were so such a running god. All this time while you've posting in all of the various subXXX threads I had no idea you had enough ability to train like a moran and still PR. Good for you. I can't wait to watch you crush 2:30 in Boston. It will be a day for the record books, kid!

I'd argue that my ability to train like a moran and still PR makes me the opposite of a "running god". And I have no intention of training in that manner, was just trying to make a point about how insignificant the majority of specific workouts are with runners like us.

And because you like me so much , here's some more garbage "marathon specific" workouts I did this week.

Tuesday night I hopped onto the track with my club and cruised through 4x1k (10k effortish) with 90sec rec then 5x30sec hills. Pretty light workout overall but was able to hit it without any problem while recovering quickly. Ran 3:20, 3:19, 3:16, 3:14 for the k's. I led 75% of the time but the weather was good. Probably could've done a few more in the 3:15-3:20 range without struggling.

Thursday I was plenty recovered from the easy Tuesday so I did 12x1min on, 1min off and managed to get most of it done before it got that dark. Did the 3rd interval as 2min instead of 1min because there was an easy Strava CR to snag. According to Strava's GAP (grade adjusted pace) I hit an extremely consistent 5:05/mi effort with the actual pace varying due to some ups and downs. Stopped at 12 because I didn't want to get greedy. I think doing 2 easy workouts a week for the next few weeks is better than trying to hit some harder workouts. It's been helping my turnover and getting me used to running hard/fast again. 2:29 is seeming more possible each week!

Cool stuff, reed. I just did a similar 1 min on/off workout the other day. First time playing around with that one. Unlike yours, I think I ran them a little too hard. I love the idea of hitting workouts like you where there is a good amount left in the tank. Nice work this week on that front. Hopefully you've got some good miles coming this weekend.

Those seem like great general workouts that will help you achieve success in a wide range of running distances.

back in the MF day wrote:

While the poster above me was not really using nice words I am off the same opinion. 4 x 2 miles will get you nowhere near optimal marathon shape. I consider everything short of ~12 miles not marathon specific and it has to be close to MP. ...

Specific is what mimics the race very closely IMO.

This is old school thinking. Practice the pace. Isn't there something better today? Jim Peters was doing the whole "maximum number of runs at MP" in the 1950s.

It's a bit of a troll, but 4x3200 at HM pace is a very tough workout. The posters on this thread are very successful runners, but it's very conventional, hard training.

Everyone tries to get their two workouts a week, but is that necessary?

I'd rather run fast long runs at 90-95% MP and have increased mileage than ever run 4x3200 @ just under HM pace (15km to HM pace). 4x3200 feels like a predictor workout, not an improvement workout.

I would do no scheduled workouts as Canova advocates, just do them when you feel like it. Waking up forced to do a big workout every Wednesday? It seems like a recipe for burnout.

What works? I think Reed's on to something. Any training will get you there, it's all about mileage. This thread has a real emphasis on hitting workouts, but is that necessary to run in the 2:30s?

There nothing better? wrote:

It's a bit of a troll, but 4x3200 at HM pace is a very tough workout. The posters on this thread are very successful runners, but it's very conventional, hard training. ...

What works? I think Reed's on to something. Any training will get you there, it's all about mileage. This thread has a real emphasis on hitting workouts, but is that necessary to run in the 2:30s?

I am an old, slow guy, but I recently had (relative) success focusing solely on workouts and long runs, with low overall mileage.

VO2max workouts were 800m to 1-mile repeats at 3K to 5K pace. LT workouts were 1.5- to 2-mile repeats and 4- to 5-mile runs at one-hour race pace. Long runs (14 to 22 miles) generally were progressions, but rarely touched on marathon pace. Total mileage averaged less than 40 mpw.

That was simple, time-efficient training that offered fantastic "bang for the buck." In January, after 12 months of easy mileage and no workouts, I could barely break 20 minutes for a 5K. In April, less than four months after adding workouts, I was under 19 minutes for 5K, and in August, under an hour for 15K.

By the end of September, I ran a 3:07 marathon (age-graded 2:36, compared to a lifetime actual PR of 2:40). That was an 18-minute improvement over the previous year. And, remember, this was on less than 40 miles per week. Smart, time-efficient training.

However, for my next marathon goal (2:26 age-graded equivalent), I plan to emphasize total mileage. Ed Whitlock style. Long, easy runs. It's a much greater time investment, and, as an experiment of one, it will be interesting to compare the results.