Moen. 2:05. Wins Fukuoka. How??

Renato, I'm not doubting that you believe this. And I'm also not suggesting what you say is not true.

But just saying you "know" them isn't really assurance that they don't dope. Whenever people who have been found out to be serial killers and other crazy stuff, you always hear from next-door neighbors who knew them well for decades, or even past girlfriends, etc., saying they were "shocked" and "had no clue." And those situations involve some pretty heinous crimes. When it comes to choosing to dope with the justification that it might make the difference between being poor forever or being able to provide for their family, I don't think it would be very difficult to pull the wool over your eyes. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure I could do it if put in that situation.

Wow, Renato seems to know all of his successful athletes as well as the rest of us know our closest relatives. Truly a remarkable coach.

You have reason, but the situation is not the same.

It's true that, if your neighbor is a terrorist, in the most part of times you were not able to find anything suspicious in his behavior, so "I didn't have any clue above this situation : he always looked as a nice guy...".

But what disturb me is that, with that mentality, EVERY YOUR NEIGHBOR IS ALREADY A TERRORIST, so this is the norm, and a good neighbor is the exception.

To think that everybody is doping means not to believe possible running fast, and with this mentality the principle of agonism and the motivation to see till where everybody can arrive with his forces only are destroyed.

When I say EPO doesn't work for athletes at the top of the World, always training and living in high altitude, somebody always asks me "what proof do you have of this".

Of course, I don't have any scientific proof of this, but, because I have the proof it's possible to beat WR in clean way (Shaheen, ALWAYS I WAS WITH HIM), and Florence Kiplagat, and Moses Mosop, or to beat the European Record with a guy from Norway (Sondre Moen) who again lives 200 days in this year with me, I have "theories" of the reasons because in this case EPO doesn't work.

At the same time, if I ask "which proves do you have that EPO works at top level", the fact that in top 100 marathon runner all time only one was doped with EPO (Wilson Erupe) and the other 99 no, this for the supporters of the EPO effects is not a proof, because in any case the other 99 MUST BE DOPED, and were not caught only because a lack of OOC Tests (but Rita Jeptoo and Jemima Sumgong and Emily Chebet were caught in OOC tests...), or because are so smart and scientifically supported that are able to avoid the positive cases. The most obvious explanation (they are not caught because NEVER used EPO) is not in the mind of these people.

Your position (maybe not your personally, but in general the position of the supporters of EPO as magic potion) is the same of somebody who, walking on the road, asks to another person whom never met before, and never knows, "give me the proof you are honest", supposing everybody walking in the road is a criminal.

Clear, I can't accept this mentality, that is not only very closed, but also stupid and superficial.

And I can't consider who shows this mentality a "clever" person, but a stupid person, dangerous for the Society where he lives, if using the same mentality in all the actions of his life.

Sounds good, so assuming Moen fails a test down the road what would you say ?

It's still 3 minutes slower than the WR and off sub 60 half not really surprising

Assuming your father is a killer would you say ?

Renato: Do you classify Moen as a "fast" or a "resistant" maraton runner, and how did this affect his training?

Looking at his training before Hannover and especially before Valencia, it seems that the interpretation is to reduce the use of glycogen at MP, rather than to try to qualify the long rung using system of progession run?

Renato Canova wrote:

It's true that, if your neighbor is a terrorist,

Well, we do know that 44% - 57% of all championship athletes in 2011 are self-admitted drug cheats, so such a comparison would only be valid if half of your neighbors were terrorists.

Renato Canova wrote:

the fact that in top 100 marathon runner all time only one was doped with EPO

Well, that is not a fact. Fact is, that only one of them (males) was tested positive.

Try to look at that with the actual numbers in mind: since half of the championship athletes are dopers, who is clean? A lot of them, yes, but a lot of them are also dirty.

From your point of view, Moen must be a very interesting case, as your often repeated claim about EPO not working was only about (top) athletes born, raised, and trained at altitude. Now Moen comes, after decades not at altitude, and drops a 2:05 after some 200 days at altitude.

You also said that Moen is clean. Going with that:

- would you say that Moen would run faster if doped with EPO?

- would you say that Moen will run faster if he would stay two more years at altitude?

- where is his ceiling, doped or clean?

Thank you.

Renato,

A few questions regarding Moens training. I know you've previously explained how he works out, but I'd like to ask you a specific question.

Moens former coach is known for his fondness of threshold running and threshold intervals. As far as I know Moen has religiously been running several threshold workouts/runs a week.

Have you changed anything about this? I know you've commented in the past that to improve threshold pace you have to go beyond it (in terms of lactate).

What levels of lactate does Moen usually have during workouts?

Thank you.

That Moen is not elite.

A few pages back there's a link to an Irish guy called Stazza. Here's his take on Moen's training before Hannover:

"Coaching is not a science, is an art." Deconstructing and explaining the masterpiece of masterpieces...

The first session Canova gives us is his standard 7x3k off 1k. Things to note, we’re up at 7’800 ft and we don’t know the specifics of what’s gone on before this — we do know that Moen (Sondre) ran 63.06 in the Valencia Half (he improves on this by more than 3 mins over the next 12 months). We also know he was up in Iten from Oct 25th-Nov 25th and that Canova worked with him. (So he’s getting in 31 days of work @ 7’800 ft). He then heads back up to Iten on Jan 1st. (Canova also mentioned that Moen was doing hill blasts 1-2 per week and moderately high support mileage). Importantly, Moen has now taken on the whole Kenyan shebang (eating, sleeping, reducing stress etc).

So we’ll look at the bog-standard Canova 7x3k (I suspect, prior to this he did the bog-standard 8x2k and had the long runs at 80-95% of MP sorted-ish). Canova furnishes us with this:

Sunday 15 : 27 km in 1 h 26'51" (average 3'13") with 7 times 3 km alternated with 1 km more slow, with the following times :

9’15” - 3'38" - 8'56" - 3'34" - 9'10" - 3'27" - 9'17" - 3'22" - 9'30" - 3'37" - 9'32" - 3'44" - 9’45"

To be blunt, a poor workout—by 'Gunslinger' standards.

Granted, out of all the runners currently running in Kerry, yours truly is the only man/woman/beast who/that could/has matched that second 3k rep (just thought I'd drop that in). But it’s still a poor workout. His fastest rep is his second (8’56”) and his last 3 reps are, 9’30”, 9’32” 9’45”; that’s some serious drift—or is it? (We'll come back to this...)

But note, his ‘slow’ km recovery remained in and around, 3’22”-3’44”. His fastest recovery km is not far off the average for his slowest 3km rep. (Interesting…) (Also, we don't know if these were on the 'track', road, or the famous, blood-orange trails...)

Now, for most people (even at sea level) that’s an awesome workout but for somebody hoping to make it to the top, it’s a long way off what The Gunslingers' bang out.

We know that 8+ months later, he went on to drop out this session at somewhere between 5,525 ft and 10,000 ft:

6 x 3 km on rough road (recovery 2'45" >< 2'55" jogging) in : 8'57" uphill - 8'40" downhill - 9'19" uphill - 8'54" downhill -

9'16" uphill - 8'46" downhill.

Now that’s more like a Gunslinger’s session.

So, we’ll go back to January. Moen’s looking at the April marathon and probably thinking, there’s work to be done. Canova’s probably looked at this and thought, ‘beautiful’—I love these sort of challenges. But, I suspect Canova wasn’t overly interested in the April marathon: he was probably thinking about December 2017 ( I just had to check what year we're in) and beyond.

Why do I say that? Well, Canova posted this:

“Finally, which is our goal ?

It's to show that White runners, European or American or from Oceania, can run fast like African runners, if have good talent (maybe not the same of African, but in any case very good), if they decide to dedicate a part of their life to a REAL training, in the same conditions of African people.

The performance of Sondre comes after the same level reached by the twins Robertson, showing possible running fast, if their choice of life is to live for the most part of time in altitude, having continuity in training (something very few African have).

With continuity it's possible to fill the gap of pure talent between European and African top athletes.

Altitude changes physiological parameters of every athlete, if becomes a normal situation, and not only an ecception for short periods (what generally happens to Europeans, going altitude before the main competitions only).

Living and training with some of the best in the World, can give the opportunity to grow, and, if there is good talent, to increase the self confidence, understanding that athletes able running under 1 hour or under 2:07' in Marathon are products of the ambience and of a mentality that doesn't know limits (because the most part don't know anything about the level of athletic performances). Sondre in Kenya trained several times with Abel Kirui and Geoffrey Kirui, while in Europe Always was alone, and this fact gave him the right concentration for running alone the last 10 km in Valencia.

I'm curious to see, now that a White athlete was able to run like some of the best Africans, how White people consider this performance in relation with doping.

Because there are two possibilities only : or people think Sondre is doped (instead doesn't use any supplement, also legit), or has to stop thinking all Kenyans and Ethiopians running like Sondre are doped.

And, again, I hope many go to riconsider the fact that EPO can help athletes training in high altitude with continuity.

I think, and hope, Sondre doesn't finish to amaze people with his future performances, in Marathon too, since the big talent of this athlete is in his mind, and in his choice to dedicate some year of his life to the goal to run fast like Africans.

During the last period of 50 days in Sestriere, he was completely alone in a small apartment, cooking himself, driving the car for moving from Sestriere to Valle Argentera or Val Troncea (that are 10 km far from Sestriere) for every long and easy run (I followed him during specific workouts only). He paid all his training activity with his own money, and till now didn't have any big income for covering his expenditures (I hope from now something can change).

The real question is : How many Sondre there are in Europe or US, as physical talent ? Of sure, probably a big number, also if not the same of Africans. But, while ALL the African runners, with (or without...) talent, try to become professional athletes, HOW MANY WESTERN TALENTS ARE INTERESTED IN RUNNING AND ACCEPT TO HAVE A CHOICE OF LIFE SUCH AS SONDRE OR THE ROBERTSON TWINS ?

This is the real limit : not doping or something else, but the real MOTIVATION fore training at the higher level, making normal a situation that, for the great majority of people, is a situation of uncomfortableness that kills their interest in our discipline.”

Fantastic! But how did Canova get Moen from that 7x3k (9’15—8’56”—9’10—9’17”—9’30”—9’32—9’45”) down to sub 60’ for the half (note, 59.47—Moen’s half time in Valencia— is about 2.51 per km/8’33 per 3km without slowing down for recoveries; just sit back and think about it)?

Up next, the three greatest workouts of all time (the master at his best) and how Canova's vision starts to take shape…

"Coaching is not a science, is an art." The Three Greatest Workouts Of All Time (The Master At His Best) Workout 1 Part 1a...

Up next, the three greatest workouts of all time (The Master at his best)…

Workout 1 part 1a...

So, while Kerry runners trawl through pages of internet results searching for sub 9 3k runners etc, I’ll continue with the REAL story…

The challenge: Moen’s caving early on—he can’t cope with 7x3k off 1km; might be the altitude (definitely a contributory factor—at this stage)—maybe he was slightly sick (doesn’t look like it, as there’s no mention of it—there is mention elsewhere when sickness rears its ugly skull)—might be the whole cultural change and body trying to adapt to the ‘monk life’ (probably not, as things improve with the correct intervention and he's been there a while)—might be that Moen lacks the necessary equipment (most likely—at this stage). It looks like Moen doesn’t posses the necessary speed/speed endurance/strength—how can Canova extend the intensity if the intensity is lacking?

99.9% of coaches would have gone to the, 'improve your 5k time/10k time' thing and then come back and build towards the marathon, which sounds like a good idea—on paper. But we all know that wouldn’t work. Ah, you don’t/you didn’t. Let me explain…

If Canova had taken Moen out of the marathon build-up to focus on the 5k/10k specifically (at this stage) Moen would have ended up nowhere. Effectively, he would have gained a bit of strength from the moderately high mileage on the rolling hills, the limited (at this stage) altitude exposure, and a few good long progression runs/moderately paced runs/long rep workouts/hill repeats. The transition into 5k/10k training would have failed: Moen needed the ‘nguvu’ that comes from the marathon work at this altitude on this terrain to give him the structural and metabolic toolset to breakthrough. ‘Mtaka cha uvunguni sharti ainame.’ (If you want what’s under the bed, you’ve gotta bend over and reach for it, lad — you’ve got to do whatever it takes.)

So, Canova drops in this workout:

Wednesday 18 (on track in Chepkoilel, 2200m altitude) : 2 x 3000m (recovery 3') + 3 x 2000m (recovery 2'30")+ 5 x 1000m (recovery 1'45") + 6 x 500m (recovery 1'30") in 8'59" - 8'54" - 5'54" - 5'59" - 6'03" - 3'01" - 2'58" - 3'00" - 3'01" - 3'02" - 1'26" - 1'27" - 1'26" - 1'27" - 1'25" - 1'25"

Wow. Can you see the magic? Look carefully… No! I’ll show you:

First off, they traipse down to Chepkoilel (Eldoret—a drop in altitude). Why drop 600+ feet? Why go, 2x3000m off 3’—3x2000 off 2’30”—5x1000m off 1’45—6x500m off 1.30, instead of extending the intensity of what Moen had already done? Why do this workout 3 days after 7x3k off 1k?

We'll start with the altitude drop: they wanted the ‘track’ at Chepkoilel—a flat(ish) surface, albeit a dirt track. Also, the 600 foot drop might not sound like much but it is, especially when you’re doing faster stuff. Psychologically and physically, Moen would have felt the ‘nguvu’ growing. Most likely, he’d have thought, ‘Oh yes, baby, we’re dropping down—this will make things a bit easier. I won’t drift so much on the reps; I’ll hold the session together.’

So then, when Canova gives him the workout and the paces, Moen’s probably thinking, ‘Righto, chap, I’ve got this. I can see what you’re doing. You want me to run around 3 min km pace(4.48-50 min mile pace—you’re breaking down the workout so I can handle it—and so on. Moen’s buzzing. A 600 foot drop now feels like a 1,200 foot drop. Now, be aware of something: metabolically and structurally, there's a big difference between 5.00 pace and 4.48 pace (we're not talking one mile here, we're talking 12-13 miles worth of work). Don't believe me...ask, Riley, Bryant, Jason, Ken, and Ben how much harder it is to hold 4.48 pace compared to 5.00pace. (it's all secret stuff about energy systems that you guys aren't allowed to know about; it's classified coaching stuff for topnotch coaches only...)

But why give him this workout at this stage? Surely, it’s a step back: Canova isn’t extending the intensity, he’s breaking the session up and making it easier than the previous session—there’s no progression/extension. This isn't how Canova does things. Easy boy, slow down…

Look at the workout carefully…Previous session=21 km fast work (most likely at 600 feet higher). This session 20k volume= easier. But now look at the pace: instead of averaging 9’21” per 3k (15’35-5k or 5 min mile pace), Moen’s averaged, 8’45”/46” (14’35/6”-5ks or 4.40-42 min mile pace). Hold on chief, we now have 20km worth of work at 7’200 feet on a cruddy track at 4.40 min mile pace as opposed to 5 min mile pace. Also, Moen's exceeding Canova's expectations (he's not really exceeding Canova's expectations as Canova knew fine well what he'd bang out - cheeky.) Yes, that’s nice. That's some progression (maintaining, just about, the volume) But, stop for a second, that’s still only 29’12”ish for 10km or 59.25ish is 20km. Yet, Moen still manages to eventually run 21km and a bit in 59.47. Jakers!

But, Moen’s feeling better about things: he’s seen progression in pace over similar distance with recoveries being cut in terms of time between reps (although, overall recovery time is longer). Moen now knows, he can zip about under 3km no bother at 7’000+ feet on a cruddy track. Instead of caving like he did on the 7x3k session, he actually finished strongly, running the last rep at 2.50km pace rather than jogging at 3.15 pace.

That leads to the third point, why do this three days after the 7x3k? Canova’s a fan of full recovery between workouts—often taking 5-6 days between workouts. He knew that Moen had the ‘nguvu’, that the 7x3k workout hadn’t wrecked him.

‘Nah’, you scream, 'he slowed a good bit on the final 3x3km; he must have been zubed.'

Hold on kids, this is Stazza now. You’re wrong. Go back and look carefully at the first workout (the 7x3km off 1km)…Did you see it? No. Well, guess what, I’m going to explain it to you, tomorrow…

"Coaching is not a science, is an art." The Three Greatest Workouts Of All Time (The Master At His Best) Workout 1 Part 1b...

THE SECOND AND THIRD COMING...

What we want to know next is why Canova dished out :

Wednesday 18 (on track in Chepkoilel, 2200m altitude) : 2 x 3000m (recovery 3') + 3 x 2000m (recovery 2'30")+ 5 x 1000m (recovery 1'45") + 6 x 500m (recovery 1'30") in 8'59" - 8'54" - 5'54" - 5'59" - 6'03" - 3'01" - 2'58" - 3'00" - 3'01" - 3'02" - 1'26" - 1'27" - 1'26" - 1'27" - 1'25" - 1’25"

only three days after Moen did:

Sunday 15 : 27 km in 1 h 26'51" (average 3'13") with 7 times 3 km alternated with 1 km more slow, with the following times :

9’15” - 3'38" - 8'56" - 3'34" - 9'10" - 3'27" - 9'17" - 3'22" - 9'30" - 3'37" - 9'32" - 3'44" - 9’45"

We’ve chatted about a few points already; we know that the session worked and we also have a good idea why Canova gave him the session. But we need to look closely at the ‘failed’ 7x3k off 1k workout and try to understand why Canova didn’t give him longer to recover.

The first rep for the 7x3k-AP=3’05” per km.

Then, Moen ups things into the area where they were probably targeting-2’59”(ish) per km.

Now, we need to stop here and look closely at what’s happening…After the first rep, the recovery was 1km in 3’38 (I suspect the idea was was 30 secs slower per km for the recovery km or 3.30s (if the target was 9’ for each 3k=3’for each km).

Moen then bangs out the second 3k rep around the target pace (perfecto). He also drops out the recovery km in the right range (3’34”).

And then, Moen does a Chinua Achebe, or as the Irish would have it, a Yeats:

“Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;”

Moen drops from the 9’ 3ks to 9’10”—he feels bad for not holding the centre together (he’s tough)—he makes sure he hits the recovery km (3.27) whataboy: even brings it in 3” under to make up for not holding the centre—then he goes, 9’17” (come on, lad; hold it together)—he fights back (Achebe ‘wrestling’ style) and does the recovery km in, 3’22” (he’s like Cool Hand Luke getting up every time he gets knocked down)—9’30” for next 3k (3’10” pace—the recoveries and efforts begin to ‘funnel’ together)—a 3.37 recovery km follows (a big drop from the 3’22” but still faster than the recovery after the first rep of the workout—hang in there son)—9’32" for the next 3k (he’s holding it together; albeit, 30 seconds slower than where it should be—this is important)—3’44” for the final recovery (ouch)—then, 9’45” for the final 3k—thankfully, it’s over.

And when the world weeps, Canova weeps—not…

I am ‘The Second Coming’—where others would see failure, see a mess, Canova sees beauty.

We learn, the physiological adaptations from altitude haven’t kicked-in— yet: Moen can’t shunt the lactate at 3 min pace—after a few 3km reps. But he seems able to clear and utilise the lactate at slightly slower paces. The challenge: to improve Moen’s ability to shunt lactate and use it at 3’ pace and quicker (that’s tough to do).

But also, he was able to hold the centre together on the recoveries—this is promising…

For the first 3x3k, Moen was able to hold 8’56”—9’15”; for the next 3x3k, Moen held, 9’17”—9’32” (keeping the recovery solid too); it was only the final recovery and rep where it really fell off the escarpment’s edge…

(Just a little note: see that 'the escarpment's edge' is left at the end of the paragraph: your eyes fall off the edge of the paragraphic escarpment and free ‘fall’ down to this paragraph—words mimicking the action: mimesis. Roland* would be proud of me.)

Back to Moen and Renato rather than Roland Barthes…

So, the 7x3km off 1km metamorphosized from a long rep session at slightly faster than MP into a tempo run: the reps and recoveries effectively ‘funnelled’ into a tempo run (notice how Canova posts the AP of the 27km as, 3’13”…)Micmickry, Mimickry, they've all got it, Mimimickry. (I crack myself up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvs4bOMv5Xw

)

This meant that the 7x3km off 1km wasn’t a blow-up session but rather it turned into a mumbojumbo pellmell of a tempo run where for the second half of the session, Moen was running within himself (metabolically and structurally) but was unable to find the zip for the session because he couldn't shunt the lactate...)

Now, 99.99% of coaches would say that the idea of the breakdown 20km session at faster than 3’ pace was to do a session on tired legs—to ‘mimic’ the marathon fatigue (Stazza rolls eyes). Wrong.

Moen had recovered from the Sunday session (it didn’t take much out of him: it was more like a moderate tempo). To then go in and rebuild Moen, showing him he could bang out the 20km session at that pace, was the work of Canova The Master.

But more importantly, the breakdown session paved the way for The Second and The Third ‘Coming’/workouts; The third workout is a groundbreaker (I’m not sure if Canova even realises what he’s stumbled upon—probably not); what’s important for you guys is, that I do…

If Canova is ‘The Second Coming’, who is ‘The Third Coming’?

*"The birth of the reader must be at the cost of the death of the Author"

umm Renato you need to watch it there buddy.

calling people idiot, moron and stupid on this cite will get you banned. you know you have to be civil, you have to be respectful, you cant be mean.

i know you are a genius cause you boast and brag that you are, so you should prob chill it out a bit on the name calling. do you know that calling someone an idiot is hurtful? i learned my ways Renato, i used to say your name incorrectly and it got me banned, so please be nice to people. dont be soooo mean, they dont get it yet, one day they will see as i do, EPO is nothing more than snake oil.

basic intrinsic signing out

Haha. You lifted that a good while back. There's a serious typo in there: "59.25" was changed, 2 weeks ago, to "58.25". All the same, chapeau...

Kenians and Ethiopians are born , grown and train in altitude and the energy and focus they put

in training is total cos if they have the talent to win races that can change their life and (very important)

the one of their relatives in better . Their motivation are so high. Is not easy for a western citizen with all

type of modern life confort follow their training regime 24h a day all year round.

I remember one anecdote from coach Canova about Shaheen when a Japanese tv crew went to Eldoret

to talk to him about his new WR . The tv crew went to his milionaire mansion (by european standars)

but didnt find him . So they went to Iten and found him livin in a kind of shack not good even for sheeps.

They ask him why are you livin here? His answer was : I cant be indulgent with myself living with all confort and than close the door of my house and go into hard training session. I am the best in world and to be the best all I need is a small bed to sleep some kind of roof over my head and some clothes to sleep at night cos it can be cold. Even his training partners found it hard to resist with him more than few weeks to that kind of spartan life and hard training regime. Do you think is easy?

I dont have to talk about Italians runners ? Who are you self?

I dont know where you come from but let me tell you you have to learn a lot for one particular italian runner.

His name is Giorgio Calcaterra and if you love distance running better look at him as a long distance runner god.

Sondre never had a good basic speed, but always showed to have a very good resistance, under both physical and mental point of view.

He started with ski cross, like many athletes from Scandinavia, and this gave him the right mental approach to the endurance events. However, under the biomechanical side, the ski cross is not the best way for starting running, because that activity never improve the elastic ability, and reduces the reactivity of feet that is important quality for a runner.

When he started with me, his PB on track were already old, also because he had a surgery in one foot that threw him out of training and competitions for almost two years : 8'01"68 in 3000m (2010) and 13'30"22 in 5000m (2011), not good enough for a marathon runner of world level.

At the same time, I could see from his evolution that the progressive loss of speed endurance was not compensated by a gain in resistance, since his PB in HM practically never changed in the last years : 62:48 in 2012, 62:59 in 2014 (Sondre lost all the season 2013 because of the surgery), 62:32 in 2015 and 62:19 in 2016.

One of the most important rules in training is : "Never to lose what already you have", before adding what you didn't have.

In his case, he already had lost his speed, and the first point was to work for recovering the old ability in that direction, at the same time maintaining the aerobic resistance he developed in the last 3 years.

This choice of course didn't pay at the beginning, when Sondre faces two problems :

a) The adaptation to altitude

b) The execution of extensive workouts on track around the level of his Threshold, in order to put the basis for two months (May and June) with workouts in the lactic area, that he completely forgot during his previous preparation for the marathon.

The first signal of a change of situation came in Nembro, when he was able, pacing the most part of the race, to destroy his PB of 3000m, 7 years old, of 9 seconds, running in 7'52". This fact made us thinking he could have a chance to achieve the limit for running 5000m in WCh, and this happened in Heusden, with 13'20".

After the end of August, when he ran his last 5000m on track, Sondre started immediately the preparation for Fukuoka, using the same volume of before, but starting from a higher base of speed. If we look at his "Internal Load", we can see how with the same level of effort (considering the same level of lactate), he had an improvement of 4" per km, compared with the data of March-April.

When we prepare a marathon, ALWAYS the most important goal is to reduce the use of glycogen at MP, so this was not a particularly of his preparation, but is what every marathon runner must have as target.

The real system is the alternance, for short period, of training for increasing the speed endurance with training for increasing the aerobic level. In this case, one is the direct support of the other, and the trend is growing continuously.

Thanks Renato.

My question was due to that you once wrote that a resistant runner starting with marathon without coming from track schould train in a different way compared to a runner coming from track.

In your book you explain that for the "resistant" runner the most important thing is to qualify the long run and at the same time put short intervall on track to improve the speed, while the runners coming from track scould focus more on reduce the gap between the pace of Ant and AT.

So in this case Sondre was in the first category when he started with you?

Would your strategy become different if you start with an athlete running the same time as Sondre did in 1/2 marathon and marathon before starting with you, but has no experience with track and show lack of lactate capasity?

"Well, we do know that 44% - 57% of all championship athletes in 2011 are self-admitted drug cheats, so such a comparison would only be valid if half of your neighbors were terrorists."

Ken, this is a personal and not supported interpretation, because the percentage of 44% - 57% regards ALL THE EVENTS, and I suspect that, in 95% of the cases, regards athletes using steroids, as more common inside sprinters and throwers.

This reduces in considerable way the percentage of athletes of middle and long distance, admitting to be drug cheaters, and enhances the possibility that the most part of them are clean, validating the FACT that 99 of the top 100 never were caught as positives. In this case, I think you can give a high percentage of possibility that a big number of the athletes never caught can be clean, and this percentage is well higher than 50%, especially when you move to the top.

I have also to point out that I speak for males only, since we have a very much higher number of positives among the women.

How to explain this particular ? With the fact that steroids have on the women a strong effect, while for men the effects (in case of long distance runners) is risible. And again, if you go to see the illegal substances provoking the ban among the most part of doped athletes of endurance, you can see a clear prevalence of steroids compared with EPO.

About "EPO doesn't work with the top athletes born, living and training in altitude", this doesn't mean that this happens because some genetic difference, like many think to understand from my words. But I did this assumption because NEVER we had athletes born at sea level who accepted to live and train ALWAYS in altitude.

This means that is the training in altitude, when at maximum level as both volume and specific intensity, that provokes physiological variations in every human being, talented for running, and able to put himself in that situation.

So, we can my assumption in the following way, if for you becomes more clear :

"EPO doesn't work with ALL TOP ATHLETES OF ENDURANCE, when they live and train for very long periods in altitude, with the optimal volume and intensity connected with their event".

This is not effect of some genetic difference, but effect of different exposure to well identified factors : high altitude, and tough training in the right direction.

About your other questions, these are my answers :

a) NO, I don't think Sondre could run faster taking EPO, because, for some advantage he could have, he could have some advantage, and the final balance could not be positive. I explained a lot of times that our body is organized in very complicated way, and everybody has an INDIVIDUAL balance among a lot of different components.

The fact we have at the same level of performance athletes with 39 or 53 of Hct, with 12.5 or 18.5 of Hb, clearly teaches us (if we are so humble to look at the global picture, and not at one particular only) that there are situations of compensation inside the individual physiology.

It is very easy and simple, for researchers, to understand that EPO has the effect of raising the level of Hct, and at the same time to increase the ability to transport Oxygen.

It's very much more difficult to explain that, in the combination of ALL the factors influencing a performance, the fact to have higher Hct not always corresponds with some improvement in the performance, because goes to inhibit some other activity of our body, which is important for the athletic result.

And, for every situation where there is some advantage, we have a specular disadvantage.

More transport of Oxygen due to EPO produces increase of viscosity.

Increase of viscosity induces less velocity in the circulation.

Less velocity in the circulation produces more difficulty in the elimination of the waste produced in the muscle fibers and makes more difficult the shuttle of lactate

Increase of the peripheral resistance requires a supplementary work by the heart.

With EPO we can't increase the total volume of blood at the same quantity that with altitude only, etc....

There are other hundred correlations that we have to consider for an athlete, and this is exactly what we coaches ask to study, but till now never existed one physiologist interested, or able, to do a research in that direction.

I repeat again, for the thousandth time : TILL WHEN SCIENTISTS DON'T STUDY THE EFFECTS OF ADVANCED TRAINING, IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND EFFECTS AND LIMITS OF BLOOD DOPING.

Ken, you have all the training of Sondre from January till November, 3 days before Fukuoka : do you think that training has something to do with the words "elite athletes, well trained" that we find in the researches of physiologists, speaking of something they never had the idea could exist ?

And, yes, his process of improvement because the altitude in my opinion is not be over. I think he can still improve, because to build a max personal performance is like to build a house : the 4th floor is built over the 3rd, the 5th over the 4th, and so and so, and I think for every athlete we need to have a plan lasting 5-7 years for reaching his best. At this point, I don't know how much advantage Sondre can still take from his training in altitude, but I know that, without altitude, his training has to go down, and his performances become worse.

So, for me, the only element we can't cancel from the preparation of a top athlete of endurance is ALTITUDE, because we can replace many means of training, but never the combined effects that altitude can produce, with athletes at higher level of training (always speaking about aerobic events).

In conclusion : EPO works with the following categories :

a) Weak athletes, without the talent for moving to very tough training, as volume and intensity

b) Lazy athletes, without the motivation for moving to very tough training as volume and intensity

c) Athletes training at sea level, who have to "surrogate" the natural advantages produced by tough training in altitude.

But, when we speak about the top, they are not weak, they are not lazy, and always train in altitude. For that reason, at the top they are clean, and the fact that somebody can run well using EPO doesn't mean he can have advantages, but that used another road (stupid and illegal) for achieving the same results could achieve with altitude training only in clean way.

I don't know why this surprises anyone. This was a decade in the making. I always knew that Moen kid would amount to something.

http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/high-school/article_87325fd4-fcd1-5b33-8662-3a938040e75e.html

Renato Canova wrote:

Ken, you have all the training of Sondre from January till November, 3 days before Fukuoka

I've looked around but I can't find any of Moen's training from after the Valencia half. Mr. Canova, could you please post that information? If it has already been posted, could someone direct me? Thanks