Yeah Guppy won with a pedestrian time (for an elite) so he's obvs doping.
Yeah Guppy won with a pedestrian time (for an elite) so he's obvs doping.
Hang out in a hospitality room and listen.
well if you had been paying attention for the last couple years you would know my stance.
EPO is said to give 3-4% improvement, and if you plug and chug the answers and not just be a lazy a$$hole and talk sh*t you can see what i found as well.
2:03 off EPO becomes 2:05-6...so it is my belief that those guys are natural 2:05 high to 2:06 low guys. then you look at the group that runs 2:06 now, and realize they are 2:09 guys off the sauce.
when rupp was on the sauce he was running 3:50 indoor mile, 26:44 and had 52-53 finishing kick speed, and yes was prob a 2:06 guy....now he is off the sauce and is a 2:09 guy.
when kenyans go from running 2:04-6 range and are struggling to hit 2:10s thats a big sign to me that they are off the sauce. so in a sense rupp running competitive times from the 70s it shows that the huge kenyan rush of sub 2:09 times has been more than likely been because of the sauce.
now if ruppy poop is still micro dosing the sauce and can only muster 2:09, thats not good. if he is running 2:09s at best cause he is being forced to go clean and him and al sal cant risk him getting popped since the heat has been on them so hard then i guess thats pretty good considering. but that still is 3 min off of what natural kipchoge and kb can run which i believe is 2:05 high to 2:06 low.
if you dont want to believe me then go and check, EPO prob came on the scene in 88 or so in biking and didnt hit the running scene till much later prob 95 or so...lets look at the marathon WR progression shall we
2:07:12 Carlos Lopes Portugal April 20, 1985 Rotterdam
2:06:50 Belayneh Dinsamo Ethiopia April 17, 1988 Rotterdam
2:06:05 Ronaldo da Costa Brazil September 20, 1998 Berlin
2:05:42 Khalid Khannouchi Morocco October 24, 1999 Chicago
2:05:38 Khalid Khannouchi United States April 14, 2002 London M
2:04:55 Paul Tergat Kenya September 28, 2003 Berlin
2:04:26 Haile Gebrselassie Ethiopia September 30, 2007 Berlin
2:03:59 Haile Gebrselassie Ethiopia September 28, 2008 Berlin
2:03:38 Patrick Makau Kenya September 25, 2011 Berlin
2:03:23 Wilson Kipsang Kenya September 29, 2013 Berlin
2:02:57 Dennis Kimetto Kenya September 28, 2014 Berlin
so lets take a looksky....2:06:50 WR for 10yrs, then a 2:09 guy gets on them sauce and runs a 2:06:05
then KK gets on the sauce and he was prob a 2:08 low guy
paul and haile were super old so they were not at there 26 10k shape anymore so you could speculate that they were natural 2:06 kinda guys in their prime but father time took that from them and they were so all they could muster on the sauce being old me is 2:04's
but EPO doesnt work so my argument is useless
Many good posts on both sides, but I still can't see how anyone can bring Jordan into this conversation.....unless you are JEALOUS.
Odds Are wrote:
So if you run for Kenya or Ethiopia and do well you're automatically a doper, going by your dogs and fleas analogy. It's never hard work or talent.
Shalene knew exactly what she was saying, and knows that Hasay has never been implicated or accused. Would like to think she's fueling a rivalry to draw interest, but doubt it.
Our sport is getting consumed and destroyed from within by the dopers and our governing body's inability to deal with it, but also by the voices like Flanagan that want us all to believe that anyone who does better than them are doing it illegally. It's a vicious downward spiral that is killing the sport.
NOP Supertramp wrote:You people and your small brains.
Shalane did not saying anything specific about Hasay. She has doubts on about NOP and she, and everyone else, has every right to be suspicious about the whole group.
You sleep with dogs and you are bound to get fleas.
Wrong. You are lumping an entire country of runners together. When it comes to African runners, you do not see individual runners or teams or training groups. Why is that?
I do not think all Americans are dopers because Gatlin doped. I'm sure you do though since you like to lump everyone from the same country together.
Totally different when talking about a small training group made of runners that have been together for awhile. They all know what is going on or at the very least know what the investigation says. Obviously ALSal has his runners brainwashed to blindly go along with his methods.
Just like Jimmy Jones except Al serves up PEDs instead of kool-aid.
meb and deena went to a training group then became medalists. solinsky out of nowhere runs sub 27 and never does it again. jager blood passport is as suspect as anyone in the world.... and rupp, who was a better runner than meb in college has had steady improvement.... buuuut he looks funny and is not a social butterfly. its not about wrong or right, its about like or dont like.
have met meb... seems like an fake tool d bag.
ponds in the midwest wrote:
rupp ran 13:37 in high school. he broke meb's american record time when he was less than one year out of college. he's a better caliber runner than meb.
he's a freak. Fernandez ran 3:55 as a freshman in college, right? freak.
that Norwegian Ingebritsen kid is better than most runners and he's what, 16-17 years old?!
these guys are rooted in very very deep talent first and foremost, so why should any of us understand what they are capable of? the marathon is a sport where years and years of consistent running make the race. it takes years for a good performance. the world record marathon pace is faster than most 5k road races are won in...by semi-professional athletes
just saying.
Then there is nothing to worry about, right?
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no rupp is running pretty spotless right now i would wager, but that doesnt have anything to do with the fact that al sal has made him a walking pharmacy since hs.
so when that all happens all his AR will be gone, and his legacy tarnished like lance...and i will be happy.
when that happens i hope the brojos give the black screen, with the "ballerness" poster haha that would be awesome
themanontherun wrote:
mindweak wrote:but you guys do have one thing right, i do think it is bitter jealousy but completely JUSTIFIED....i think its better to call it RESENTMENT
think about it, you train your a$$ off and sal and NOP, have all of nikes backing, and are allowed to grey area, micro dose and androgel rub downs with happy endings and its not just covered up, its ALLOWED.
I've always thought that this is the most likely explanation, but in reverse. These pros know that NOP is NOT doing anything illegal or against the rules, and they hate that.
+1
Big Red wrote:
I will say this for the Brojos.
These men are super marathon fans. They like the prospect of Rupp the marathoner a good bit more than Rupp the 10,000 meter runner (the distance event they seem to like the least on the Oly program).
Well the marathon is more fun as you have your focus on that (except for the women's race at the same time). It's not lost with 20 events in a week.
I like the 10,000 - hate the 5,000. 5,000 turns into a 1500 every time.
To the guy who did the long summary of Salazar stuff - amazing post.
USA Running Fan wrote:
You know, I realize this is heresy in the USA running community, but unless he is in the spotlight, Meb is kind of a jerk. He's merely great at projecting a facade of positivity and sincerity, despite being neither. Basically, Galen Rupp is the Jan Brady of American distance running, and Meb is Marcia Marcia Marcia. Case in point was when Galen won Olympic bronze, and during the live post-race interview, Galen was preempted for footage of Meb slipping at the finish line, then making a mockery of the sport by proceeding to do several push-ups to draw attention to himself rather than crossing the finish line. Then the interviewer said to Galen, "well I'm sure you want to go over and congratulate Meb." Possibly the greatest accomplishment of Galen's career, and Meb ruined the moment with his narcissistic antics. If I'm Galen, I'm definitely not thinking "I just won Olympic bronze. I can't think of anything I'd want to do more than congratulate some phony jerk for running a 2:20ish, 30ish place finish.
That being said, I was thrilled for Men's achievements, especially '04 Olympic silver and the amazing '14 Boston victory. His happy go lucky nice guy facade belies the fierce competitor within him, however, and he insults Galen with impunity.
Meanwhile, Galen gets little support from American fans, simply because he doesn't have the charisma of Meb, and rather than projecting something he's not, Galen exhibits his competitive drive at all times.
As far as Shalane, she did get cheated out of a silver medal once to a doper, so I understand where she's coming from. But it does come across as bitter to drop innuendo against someone who hasn't been found to have violated any rules.
Is it really not possible to be proud of Meb, Shalane, AND Galen?
Couldn’t disagree more with your first paragraph. Meb is one of the nicest elites I’ve ever been fortunate enough to hang out with. Galen was fine.
It is certainly possible to be proud of all three. It’s also possible not to be.
I don’t always agree with Rekrunner but I think this is generally right. I would just note that people make note of the investigation but pick and choose who to suspect (1) within NOP and (2) among thyroid users and patients of Dr Brown. Also, while I tend to think issues like the EPO bust makes Aden’s group pretty suspicious but, in general, the sport should be:- Good, regular testing among the key countries. - Due process to properly and consistently investigate and disclose outcomes so people are cleared or not. Too many athletes are tainted by poor testing programs that make the whole country look bad or endless investigations.
rekrunner wrote:
We shouldn't blame Shalane and Meb. Shalane is spot on when she says:
"So as a fan of my own sport, it’s hard to have full excitement and faith when you don’t know all the facts yet."
A lot has been said on this topic, by people who "don’t know all the facts yet." Shalane and Meb did not create this uncertainty, but are understandably confused about how they should feel about the victories in the current environment of uncertainty.
Whether NOP is right or wrong, I see that NOP is in a kind of lose-lose scenario.
Rupp says in interviews that he is confident that in the long run, the truth will come out, because they are doing things "the right way" and not breaking the rules. I am not so optimistic, that *IF* Alberto and Rupp have been telling the truth all along, that it would ever come out in the long run.
I only see two possible outcomes:
1) Some investigation finally finds someone connected to NOP guilty of something (be it an ADRV, medical malpractice, shipping controlled drugs across borders, 100ml infusions, etc.).
2) No investigation produces a path that leads to any guilty finding, dossiers remain open, maintaining a state of perpetual limbo of uncertainty.
Putting aside any alleged local, state, or international law violations (legal matters for non-antidoping jurisdictions) suppose for a moment, for the sake of argument, that the unbiased reality is, within the limited scope of WADA's jurisdiction of anti-doping, that NOP has always stayed within WADA rules, for those athletes and staff subject to WADA rules. No one will come forward and officially clear Alberto/Rupp/Farah/Hasay/NOP of suspicion. If USADA's investigations all lead to dead-ends, they will simply quietly leave the dossier open in case further evidence arrives later, and not comment on an open investigation. USADA is not conducting a commissioned Independent Investigation, to address the BBC Panorama/Publica allegations, like WADA did, with an expectation of a hundred page detailed report with findings and recommendations. There will be no James Comey announcement where USADA will say in an official press release, that after a lengthy 4 year+ targeted inquiry, they have no evidence of any NOP athlete committing an ADRV at any time, culminating in recommendations for rule changes, and referring some topics for other legal jurisdictions to investigate. Even the Fancy Bears "leaked report" was something in the narrow scope of getting Dr. Brown depositioned (something that failed), and was never meant to be made public -- we will not see a final version of the "leaked report".
Great. Be methodical.Then maybe you can chart out the progresssions of 20 top Americans and see if Rupp’s are really as unusual as you suggest.
Just take their events and progression from ages 20-35. I bet you will end up seeing lots of improvements to mile times, etc in mid to late 20s or early 30s.
Then you can also list who work with what coach, who saw Dr Brown and who was on thyroids, etc. for those who were curious.
That’s a baseline of information for your arguments about suspicious improvement.
Great. Be methodical.Then maybe you can chart out the progresssions of 20 top Americans and see if Rupp’s are really as unusual as you suggest. Just take their events and progression from ages 20-35. I bet you will end up seeing lots of improvements to mile times, etc in mid to late 20s or early 30s. Then you can also list who work with what coach, who saw Dr Brown and who was on thyroids, etc. for those who were curious. That’s a baseline of information for your arguments about suspicious improvement.
rojo wrote:
Looking for clarity wrote:I like Shalane and Meb. They have been great competitors and great to watch. I think they could be clearer and Gault could ask some clarifying questions.
It sounds like they are saying we should be skeptical of, and not congratulate, anyone who:
- Runs or ran for NOP - those athletes, even their friends, who ran for NOP chose to associate with Salazar for years, right? And the investigation is broad and never closes. So should we have questions about everyone? Why / why not?
- Was / is a patient of Dr. Brown? They may have non-NOP friends who went to that Dr. right? Friends coached by their own coaches perhaps?
- Improved their times a lot ( that may just be a Rojo standard in this thread)
Doesn’t this net a lot of people? Can we get a list of people who saw Dr Brown? How about people who improved their mile times at 25 or older? Improved their 5000 times by 15 seconds in a year in their mid 20s. Improved their PR substantially to win a medal at the WC?
Does it net a lot of people? Absolutely.
What's so bad about that?
I basically start with the assumption that everyone might be guilty . It's easier to start with the assumption everyone might be guilty. Start skeptical and see if the performances make sense to you.
Jordan could not make NCAA’s her senior year in track, had never won a title, then 5 weeks with Alberto she easily makes the US 10k team in 2013. Along with Tara Welling, who has not done anything of note since that big race with Alberto. Remember that meet in Des Moines? NOP made a joke of track with dominating everything. Fast forward to 2017 when USADA and the Feds are investigating that dirty team and company, zero titles at USA’s. Now Salazar’s ego can’t handle it so he is back to his “coaching†methods. He will go down, so will the athletes.
She is just as dirty as Rupp, Trenire Moser, Mo, Shannon. Jordan is nice so no one cares as much.
Why would a coach like Alberto all of a sudden not drug Jordan? Who is now the second fastest Americsn ever. Think people.
we are being tainted by an organization and fans that continue to make innuendo with no proof. USADA either has to show proof or shut the hell up. as for athletes who are too shallow to reward great efforts without proof, i say get another occupation. what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? this crap has been going on for years. salazaar replied more than a year ago and i have yet to see an intelligent reply. for it even leaking like this USADA officials should be fired. meanwhile, the best american runners we have had in a coons age are having their reputations damaged on a monthly basis.
I am a fan of both Meb and Shalane, but I found both of their comments distasteful, especially Shalane's comment about association. I assume the association she is referring to is AlSal. With that being the case, she has indicted Moser, Centro, Rowbury, Sifan Hassan, Clayton Murphy, Eric Jenkins, Rupp, Hasay and a few others. None of these athletes have had performances that anyone should say a clean athlete is not capable of. NOP has not produced a Joyciline Jepkosgei, Genzebe Dibaba, Almaz Ayana or a 2:02 marathoner type athlete. If NOP relies on PEDs, perhaps they aren't taking the right ones. In terms of Chicago, only a fool would think Rupp needed PEDs to run a 2:09 marathon. Jordan ran 1:08 in her first half marathon and 2:23 in her first marathon, finishing 3rd Chicago is a major accomplishment, but not so much that anyone should say it was fueled by PEDs.
Dopers are caught by failing a drug test, BP, analytical findings and missing several whereabouts, if either of these things were the case, an NOP athlete would be banned by now. What is currently going on is a forensic investigation of AlSal, the likes of which at most will result is some type of sanction for improper use of prescription drugs or techniques, etc. However, that will have no bearing on the 2 American athletes who ran courageously in Chicago. - Shalane and Meb , please allow us to enjoy Chicago for at least a week.
They aren't saying anything different than 95% of posters on these boards.
No one says they're cheats, they just find it hard to accept.
Move on. If you can't accept the times, leave the sport. There are more than enough fans who enjoy it and have never heard of the NOP.
Fentrekker wrote:
Make America Fast Again wrote:Shalane may regret her statement. If Nike contracts live up to their reputation, there's likely a non-disparagement clause against Nike employees and/or the company.
I think she knows very well who signs her paycheck and chose to have the courage to speak anyway. She's no dummy.
When you're the public face of a large corporation (pro athletes, executives, etc.) you will have very detailed non-disparagement clauses in your contract. Everyone does this.
When Shalane made this remark, she implied Nike employee Alberto Salazar is the person Rupp and Hasay are associating with, and this investigation is a reflection of who they are as people.
It was a very stupid remark. Nike could use this against her if they choose. If I'm a megalomaniac Nike director of global marketing, I'm asking Shalane, "Who's team are you on? Because it doesn't sound like you're on our team..."
Hayduke wrote:
meb and deena went to a training group then became medalists. solinsky out of nowhere runs sub 27 and never does it again. jager blood passport is as suspect as anyone in the world.... and rupp, who was a better runner than meb in college has had steady improvement.... buuuut he looks funny and is not a social butterfly. its not about wrong or right, its about like or dont like.
have met meb... seems like an fake tool d bag.
Rupp should have steady improvement since Al has had him on PEDs since HS.
You really think the Nike Dr got it wrong on the blood test when he wrote Testoboost on Rupp's blood results?
I hate that NOP is destroying distance running. A person cannot even enjoy a marathon win by an American cause NOP is tainted.