Doesn't Russian Doping Scandal Prove Canova is Right about EPO?

So people with weak mind disease take EPO because they believe it will make them faster. And feeling good, they train harder and the self fulfilling prophecy of greatness manifests itself.

And a coach is little more than a witch doctor who barks out " long hard run ", the magical words to transform the weak minded.

Some witch doctors have different incantations like " pump it up. "

Keep it up. Pump it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eXI4uy3Mlg

No problemie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlrQ5qttmhY

That video with Dibaba is what Canova is referring to - did you see Kaki!? All-out. All-out. How many of you guys can push yourself all-out during a training session. We all seem to be saving ourselves for "another day". These guys know how to work.

As Canova states, it is the MENTAL that separates the world's best not the PHYSICAL.

jCo wrote:

That video with Dibaba is what Canova is referring to - did you see Kaki!? All-out. All-out. How many of you guys can push yourself all-out during a training session. We all seem to be saving ourselves for "another day". These guys know how to work.

As Canova states, it is the MENTAL that separates the world's best not the PHYSICAL.

Yes, and all those syringes and bottles at the hotel were just there for show.

Pump it up.

They found bottles at Fayetteville-Manlius and at York with "VITAMIN B" injections and liquid.

Remember that?? Do we care??

jCo wrote:

They found bottles at Fayetteville-Manlius and at York with "VITAMIN B" injections and liquid.

Remember that?? Do we care??

Yeah, because EPO and B Vitamins are the same.

jCo wrote:

That video with Dibaba is what Canova is referring to - did you see Kaki!? All-out. All-out. How many of you guys can push yourself all-out during a training session. We all seem to be saving ourselves for "another day". These guys know how to work.

As Canova states, it is the MENTAL that separates the world's best not the PHYSICAL.

Maybe Kaki would actually be able to race well if he saved something for the races?

Hasn't Canova also mentioned Kenyans being able to do "one more rep" when they stop a workout?

Mr. Obvious wrote:

This argument keeps getting better and better.

Athletes take EPO, train harder, and race faster.

But it is not because of the EPO that they run faster.

Certainly this thread had turned into a ridiculous joke, Kenyans are Martians who don't benefit from EPO like the rest of us homosapiens. But strangely ran alot faster during the EPO era 1993-2008 then they do now.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Certainly this thread had turned into a ridiculous joke, Kenyans are Martians who don't benefit from EPO like the rest of us homosapiens. But strangely ran alot faster during the EPO era 1993-2008 then they do now.

Yes, because they believed a lot harder then. It's not what you inject, it's what you believe, that counts.

You implied that Lombard and Hellybuck were the only (non African?) examples of the efficacy of EPO in elite level athletes. Either you were ignorant of other examples or you were only displaying evidence that suits your argument. What you wrote was misleading and I pointed out that there are multiple examples of EPO working well in Spanish and Portuguese athletes (among others). Look at what was revealed in Operation Puerto etc, you can do the research yourself fairly quickly on the web, this is fairly well known and there is not much point for me to go through blow by blow for you in this thread.

This is the same circular reasoning you use all the time in this discussion. You argue that science cannot relate to the "real world" because controlled conditions in the real world don't exist and then you express what seems to be a desire (in order to convince you?) for a result in the "real world" that can only be achieved by controlled conditions -ie EPO being the only factor that can explain improvements in world records or area records. Non African records did improve in the 1990s and early 2000s. In Europe the talent pool for distance running decreased markedly in this period and European area records still improved. What magnitude of improvement in European records would convince you that EPO is effective in elite level distance running? A drop of 1 minute in the 5000m? 2 minutes in the 10000m? 8 minutes in the marathon?

Hi Solution Seeker,

these examples are not statistically significant.

Are they trying to close this thread? Good.

If the documented Spanish and Portuguese cases are not the ones who set the European records, you can not argue that EPO helps set European records. We already know EPO works for non-elite athletes who are poorly trained.My argument is not circular, but coming from the top. My observation is that "nothing" worked for two decades to help non-Africans compete against the East Africans. Therefore EPO did not work for non-Africans, because nothing worked. Therefore the argument that "EPO is the reason for African records because EPO also works for elite non-Africans" is one not supported by two decades of observations.It's like this: Europeans (allegedly) taking EPO managed to finish one or two steps ahead of their 1980's predecessors, while they risked being lapped by East Africans.What it would take for me to believe that EPO works for Africans and non-Africans alike is that non-Africans are in the mix in all of the distance events.

Solution Seeker wrote:

You implied that Lombard and Hellybuck were the only (non African?) examples of the efficacy of EPO in elite level athletes. Either you were ignorant of other examples or you were only displaying evidence that suits your argument. What you wrote was misleading...

This is the same circular reasoning you use all the time in this discussion. You argue that science cannot relate to the "real world" because controlled conditions in the real world don't exist and then you express what seems to be a desire (in order to convince you?) for a result in the "real world" that can only be achieved by controlled conditions

Mr. Obvious wrote:

This argument keeps getting better and better.

Athletes take EPO, train harder, and race faster.

But it is not because of the EPO that they run faster.

The human mutant Hb with the high affinity for oxygen causes tissue hypoxia, which is a deleterious effect. The body adapts by increasing endogenous EPO production, which causes polycythemia in these people. They have abnormal high levels of RBCs and hemoglobin as a compensation for their mutant Hb which is causing tissue hypoxia. These people are not dominating endurance sports. This is not what is going on with the Kenyan runners, as Renato told us they do not have abnormal high RBC or hemoglobin levels.

Endurance training causes changes in cardiac output, increased capillaries in the muscle to deliver oxygen, increased myoglobin to transport oxygen within the muscle cell, increased number and function of mitochondria and mitochondrial electron transport chain enzymes to use the oxygen, and blood changes including increased RBC volume, increased plasma volume, and increased blood volume to transport oxygen.

For example, in this study the increase of cardiac output and VO2max from training is related to increases in RBC volume and increased plasma volume, which increases total blood volume. When phlebotomy and blood removal is done, the cardiac output increases and the VO2max increases from training are reversed.

Removing blood has a large effect, and it is well known that people have decreased aerobic endurance performance after they donate blood, or in people who have anemia (decreased Hb). The science studies also show that increasing RBCs and hemoglobin through EPO or an autologous blood transfusion has an effect.

We now have 2 of the fastest 5 women on the all-time marathon list bannned for doping with EPO. Paula Radcliffe of Britain and Liliya Shobukhova of Russia (2:18:20, 2nd fastest of all time) are faster than ALL the Kenyan and Ethiopian women born, living, and training at altitude who are supposed to be the best natural genetic talents in the world according to Renato. Wang Junxia from China is also still faster at 3K (her 3K time is equivalent to about a 14:03 5k and 29:25 10K) than ALL the Kenyan and Ethiopian women of all time born, living, and training at altitude.

Why are the top female runners of all time from Britain, Russia, and China?

When Liliya Shobukhova does EPO and runs a 2:18:20 marathon, Renato says that EPO can be effective on a low altitude Russian.

When Rita Jeptoo (2:18:57 marathon, 5th fastest woman of all time) or another Kenyan such as Wilson Erupe (2:05 marathoner) or some other Kenyan get caught taking EPO and are banned for a positive EPO test, Renato has various reasons why this happens.

For example:

1) Rita Jeptoo only took EPO to help her recover from her injury and reach "90% of her top aerobic power" more quickly, but not to 100% of her top aerobic power...which can only be reached by the proper training.

2) Wilson Erupe was only taking EPO as a medicine from a doctor in Kenya, where EPO is used as a "common practice" to treat the anemia that is associated with malaria, and increase their RBC and hemoglobin levels.

3) EPO is only a placebo effect in top level Kenyan and Ethiopian runners. They may believe that if they take EPO that they will be able to recover better, train harder, and then be able to run faster. The runners then may take EPO (which Renato says has no performance enhancing effect on the top Kenyans or Ethiopians born, living, and training at altitude…but EPO can still be effective to treat their anemia and raise their RBC and hemoglobin levels if they have malaria), then they believe that they can recover better, then they train harder, and then they run faster.

Jama Aden, Genzebe Dibaba, and Tirunesh Dibaba were at the hotel with the 6 vials of 4 different types of EPO, 62 used syringes, and 23 syringes preloaded with EPO.

Was Jama Aden just giving placebo EPO injections to get his runners to believe they could recover better, train harder, and run faster?

Ridiculo.

Something "ridiculo" is also in your final questions.

1) You knows physiology, so are not honest when you say "Renato says EPO has no performance enhancing effects on the top Kenyans or Ethiopians born, living and training in altitude.... but EPO can still be effective to trear their anemia and raise their RBS and hemoglobin levels if they have malaria".

You can't not understand that moving from 90% of the shape to the full shape is one fact depending on the QALITY of a perfect training, and can happen only when there is a high aerobic base. And you can't understand that, when you have Hb = 9 nd Hct = 25, the situation is a little bit different.

So, your attempt to consider not the "subclass" of top runners when are already at 90% of their shape, but a "subclass" of Kenyan people, at the moment sick with a dangerous disease, is a clear way to exert undue influence over all people who don't have scientific knowledge and use, speaking of doping, their belly instead their brain.

2) About Jama Aden's group, I don't think you can speak about Tirunesh Dibaba, who never had anything to do with Jama till when he didn't become Genzebe's coach in 2013, when already the best of Tirunesh was over.

Instead speaking about fried air, why somebody, for example, doesn't write the training of Lombard, or Mourhit, or Ramzi, or Shobukhova, BEFORE and AFTER taking EPO, so we can see the big difference of volume and intensity which was the reason of the improvement ?

After that, we can only decide if this difference was DIRECTLY do to the assumption of EPO, or was possible because, finally, THE ATHLETES BELIEVED POSSIBLE TO TRAIN SO HARD (while before didn't believe it was possible). Of course, in this case you are supporters of the first hypothesis, I'm supporter of the second.

Give to some athlete, already with good training, EPO, without changing anything in his training (volume and intensity), and after tell me HOW MUCH IMPROVEMENT he can have in his PB. I give you already the answer : ZERO (of course I don't speak about amateurs, training without using to give real stimuli to their body).

Renato Canova wrote:

Give to some athlete, already with good training, EPO, without changing anything in his training (volume and intensity), and after tell me HOW MUCH IMPROVEMENT he can have in his PB. I give you already the answer : ZERO (of course I don't speak about amateurs, training without using to give real stimuli to their body).

I agree, but what about recovery? Maybe EPO doesn't increase absolute performance but give possibility to increase training (volume and intensity)?

rekrunner wrote:

What it would take for me to believe that EPO works for Africans and non-Africans alike is that non-Africans are in the mix in all of the distance events.

Why? If Africans and non-Africans both dope productively, why would they have to be equal in their performance?

I don't see either of them being better persons, so I don't buy the argument that Africans don't dope or vice versa. I also note that Africans are increasingly being caught in recent years.

Certainly you can't use the observation that East Africans are dominant as an argument that they are clean or that doping is pointless. On the other hand, if a Frenchie would now run 26:06 or 2:02:22, everyone here except for you would accuse him of doping.

rekrunner wrote:

If the documented Spanish and Portuguese cases are not the ones who set the European records, you can not argue that EPO helps set European records.

????

"The European record holder over 3,000 metres, 5,000m and 10,000m tested positive for the endurance-boosting substance EPO and a masking product on May last year ahead of the World Half Marathon championships in Brussels."