There was a few positives overturned around this time
One of them got busted for EPO 8 years later after getting the case thrown out
Martial Saugy appears to be the mastermind behind this false positive case.No surprise there.
There was a few positives overturned around this time
One of them got busted for EPO 8 years later after getting the case thrown out
Martial Saugy appears to be the mastermind behind this false positive case.No surprise there.
It's just a sad state of affairs when watching the OT with my 11 and 7 year olds they ask me "Mommy, is he (anyone who wins) a cheater?"
I get where Torrence is coming from here, but I still think it is foolish and irresponsible to act the way he is acting.
Sure, he is suspicious of Lagat's failed A sample 13 years ago. I think there is reason to be suspicious. Sure, he likes Ben True and wishes he had made the team. Totally fair.
But as a professional T&F athlete, you have to know that your words and accusations have a reverberative effect that is much larger than the words and accusations of your typical anonymous LRC poster. What you say has a direct impact on the way T&F fans view other runners. By saying things like this, David is ensuring that a certain percentage of fans will now view Lagat in a different way, and certainly a less positive way. No way around this. And unless you have really solid evidence to support your accusations, I don't think that is a fair thing to do to another athlete.
T&F athletes are not millionaires. The respect and admiration of fans is one of the primary reasons they do what they do. And for David to compromise that is totally irresponsible unless he has information that the rest of us don't have.
David lost a fan today.
Brain Damaged wrote:
Look who's talking wrote:Consider the source.
Yup, Torrence is brain damaged.
To be fair, he's done more to clean up the sport than any other athlete.
Spaghettimonster wrote:
Brain Damaged wrote:Yup, Torrence is brain damaged.
To be fair, he's done more to clean up the sport than any other athlete.
Being a whistleblower one time doesn't give you a free pass to act irresponsibly for the rest of your life.
sfsdfsdfgsdfggg wrote:
There is no question Lagat is incredibly gifted.
And there is no question he technically passed all of his drug tests.
Problem is, statistics tell us that there is still something like >90% chance he doped based on his Positive A and Negative B.
Add on top of that that it occurred in 90s Kenya track and field and I think the number jumps.
I my mind Lagat almost certainly did dope...I also understand that it is a worthless opinion.
This is so wrong. Statistics tell us that in one out of every 1/20 tests we will reject the null hypothesis (not clean) when in fact it is true. In other words we are bound to find some false positive A tests and therefore we must test the A and B samples to confidently identify cheaters.
bkrunner wrote:
I get where Torrence is coming from here, but I still think it is foolish and irresponsible to act the way he is acting.
Sure, he is suspicious of Lagat's failed A sample 13 years ago. I think there is reason to be suspicious. Sure, he likes Ben True and wishes he had made the team. Totally fair.
But as a professional T&F athlete, you have to know that your words and accusations have a reverberative effect that is much larger than the words and accusations of your typical anonymous LRC poster. What you say has a direct impact on the way T&F fans view other runners. By saying things like this, David is ensuring that a certain percentage of fans will now view Lagat in a different way, and certainly a less positive way. No way around this. And unless you have really solid evidence to support your accusations, I don't think that is a fair thing to do to another athlete.
T&F athletes are not millionaires. The respect and admiration of fans is one of the primary reasons they do what they do. And for David to compromise that is totally irresponsible unless he has information that the rest of us don't have.
David lost a fan today.
And he gained a fan for being honest and speaking from his heart. More than one fan I'm sure.
bkrunner wrote:
I get where Torrence is coming from here, but I still think it is foolish and irresponsible to act the way he is acting.
Sure, he is suspicious of Lagat's failed A sample 13 years ago. I think there is reason to be suspicious. Sure, he likes Ben True and wishes he had made the team. Totally fair.
But as a professional T&F athlete, you have to know that your words and accusations have a reverberative effect that is much larger than the words and accusations of your typical anonymous LRC poster. What you say has a direct impact on the way T&F fans view other runners. By saying things like this, David is ensuring that a certain percentage of fans will now view Lagat in a different way, and certainly a less positive way. No way around this. And unless you have really solid evidence to support your accusations, I don't think that is a fair thing to do to another athlete.
T&F athletes are not millionaires. The respect and admiration of fans is one of the primary reasons they do what they do. And for David to compromise that is totally irresponsible unless he has information that the rest of us don't have.
David lost a fan today.
And he gained one in me, or, rather when he helped nail Aden and his group, he gained one in me.
I know most of Lagat's defenders on here are sock puppets or paid flacks, but just in case anyone on here really thinks that Torrence went too far, ask yourself this:
Where is the line for you? What if Lagat wins the 10k trials in 2020, closing in 52? What if he wins the 1500 in 2024?? At what point is it OK for a pro to say 'no way'. Torrence believes Lagat has already crossed that line. I agree. Lagat turns 42 in a few months. If a 42 year old ran an open 400 in 52, that would be impressive. If a 42 year old ran a perfectly paced 13:35, we'd all be suspicious. To run a 52 at the end of the Olympic Trials in 13:35, blowing away the best in the country - including many sub 13:10 guys? No. No way. Espeically how fresh he was at the end. It was Dibaba-esque. And not in a good way.
This takes away the last bit of credibility the accusations of his against Aden had. Both with Aden and Lagat all he has got is "I heard rumours" (which he probably read on here) and "they train soooo hard".
But far-fetched to call any of that evidence lol.
I bet you a million dollars that Torrence's "whistleblowing" consisting of his thoughts about someone training insanely hard (while praising Ben True for training hard too) will come to nothing.
By the way: Lagat just broke the world record for 41 year olds by 22 seconds! If someone ran 12:14 for 5000, I think every pro would say something.
ssiedliski wrote:
It's just a sad state of affairs when watching the OT with my 11 and 7 year olds they ask me "Mommy, is he (anyone who wins) a cheater?"
Im sure that really happened. Why do you have to make stuff up
Link wrote:
bkrunner wrote:I get where Torrence is coming from here, but I still think it is foolish and irresponsible to act the way he is acting.
Sure, he is suspicious of Lagat's failed A sample 13 years ago. I think there is reason to be suspicious. Sure, he likes Ben True and wishes he had made the team. Totally fair.
But as a professional T&F athlete, you have to know that your words and accusations have a reverberative effect that is much larger than the words and accusations of your typical anonymous LRC poster. What you say has a direct impact on the way T&F fans view other runners. By saying things like this, David is ensuring that a certain percentage of fans will now view Lagat in a different way, and certainly a less positive way. No way around this. And unless you have really solid evidence to support your accusations, I don't think that is a fair thing to do to another athlete.
T&F athletes are not millionaires. The respect and admiration of fans is one of the primary reasons they do what they do. And for David to compromise that is totally irresponsible unless he has information that the rest of us don't have.
David lost a fan today.
And he gained one in me, or, rather when he helped nail Aden and his group, he gained one in me.
I know most of Lagat's defenders on here are sock puppets or paid flacks, but just in case anyone on here really thinks that Torrence went too far, ask yourself this:
Where is the line for you? What if Lagat wins the 10k trials in 2020, closing in 52? What if he wins the 1500 in 2024?? At what point is it OK for a pro to say 'no way'. Torrence believes Lagat has already crossed that line. I agree. Lagat turns 42 in a few months. If a 42 year old ran an open 400 in 52, that would be impressive. If a 42 year old ran a perfectly paced 13:35, we'd all be suspicious. To run a 52 at the end of the Olympic Trials in 13:35, blowing away the best in the country - including many sub 13:10 guys? No. No way. Espeically how fresh he was at the end. It was Dibaba-esque. And not in a good way.
To all the tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorists, where do you draw the line on how fast is too fast or how old is too old, to where you automatically assume some is a cheater without any proof? Is it 13:00, 13:20, 14:00? Is anyone over the age of 40 a cheater or is it 35 or 30?
If lagat was white everyone would declare he's blue collar but since he's not instead he's a cheater
rojo wrote:
Wow. I guess he did say that.. A few thoughts.
1) I can't believe he said that without evidence.
2) Despite #1, I've always thought we should do an article on the Lagat A positive/B negative.I think there are a lot of people who think like Torrence so a well researched article on the matter would be a worthy addition.
3) I did ask a highly respect author a few years ago about it (A positive for EPO B negative) and I recall correctly he said that it's quite possible that someone can have an A be positive and B negative for EPO. While not an expert of EPO, he certainly didn't think it meant Lagat was an EPO cheat and gave me the names of some experts who would be able to explain it in full.
4) We'll look into doing a story with experts on it as it's wrong to have mud slung on a highly technical issue without expert opinions.
There's really something wrong here rojo. Why do I sense that you don't possess a healthy dose of skepticism here? The same skepticism that you often possess towards other runners. You aren't 'coming across as objective with this inconsistent attitude.
Did lagat smile and grant you an interview?
ssiedliski wrote:
It's just a sad state of affairs when watching the OT with my 11 and 7 year olds they ask me "Mommy, is he (anyone who wins) a cheater?"
Well they surely didn't hear about doping scandals at school. You must have told them that the sport is rigged/full of cheaters.
Be the change you wish to see. If you don't say "I hope the dopers don't win" then your kids won't grow up to be message board trolls like you.
ssiedliski wrote:
It's just a sad state of affairs when watching the OT with my 11 and 7 year olds they ask me "Mommy, is he (anyone who wins) a cheater?"
And if that really did happen, how did you answer after Lagat's win?
Yee haw wrote:
Anyone notice the subtle shot at Jenkins, too? He kept going in and on about feeling bad for Ben True. Then somebody mentioned Eric Jenkins (who was 4th, ahead of True in 5th) and Torrence says, "I'm not gonna say anything about Jenkins". Torrence clearly believes the whole NOPer doper thing.
Jenkins...9:20 3200 in HS, 13:18 two years later as a Soph., transfers to Oregon, runs slower and consistent in the 13:40's, graduates goes to Europe and runs in the teens.
Lagat at 41 running a 52 final lap looked fresh as a daisy kinda like Mo?
Neither did Lagat wrote:
another poster wrote:Meb never tested positive on a drug test
Neither did Lagat. A positive requires positive A plus positive B.
Exactly. Way to be butthurt guys.
It's funny how Torrence thinks he has some sort of special knowledge by just being a professional runner. He wasn't close to that issue 13 years ago and he certainly isn't close to the Lagat camp now. He knows the exact same rumors everyone on these boards does.
How can he go from being so professional and tight mouthed about the Aden camp to this cringeworthy, gossip-driven outburst?
He got drunk and had himself a nice rant. Hopefully he sobers up and apologizes this morning.
I'm not saying Lagat is clean, but there is no evidence - physical or circumstantial.
I spend all this time reading this crap and then actually take 5 seconds to look something up and get pissed off because I wasted all this time here.
People say Lagat sucked in college but don't provide any facts.
http://www.ustfccca.org/records-lists/outdoor-collegiate-all-time-bests
In August and September 1999, Lagat ran 3:30:56 and 3:30:61 and 3:32:30. Lagat graduated Washington State in 2000.
yeah, right, he didn't do anything in college.