km runner wrote:
Is this true?
Does that mean the marathon world records in recent year are all of a joke ?
Yes.
Since the introduction of EPO, there is never any other way to explain the procession of elite marathoners who then vanish.
km runner wrote:
Is this true?
Does that mean the marathon world records in recent year are all of a joke ?
Yes.
Since the introduction of EPO, there is never any other way to explain the procession of elite marathoners who then vanish.
Just as American scouts, agents and coaches and introduce Dominican and Puerto Rican shortstops to take steroids and HGH, these European agents are introducing the EPO and HGH.
If you have white skin and a fat wallet, you can convince a simple villager into anything. This is big business!
runDirtyrun wrote:
km runner wrote:Is this true?
Does that mean the marathon world records in recent year are all of a joke ?
Yes.
Since the introduction of EPO, there is never any other way to explain the procession of elite marathoners who then vanish.
1. They burn out from overracing
2. They've made enough money to be financially secure for the rest of their lives
The Brain of Nassir wrote:
If you have white skin and a fat wallet, you can convince a simple villager into anything.
Phallectomy?
agip wrote:
noce wrote:I can't blame you for wanting to think that anti-doping culture can prevail over financial incentives and pressures. I wish it were true. But there is a simpler explanation for what's going on in the US. In the US, there is very little reward associated with being a professional distance runner - even when doping. In fact, there is a high opportunity cost associated with dedicating your early life to training. This is probably why we don't see LOTS of doping going on. I'm not saying US running is squeaky clean, but we don't have runners on steroids/EPO coming out of the woodwork, because in the US this is not a pathway to stardom and financial security. (Except for guys like Hesch, who are stars in their own minds)
In E Africa of course there are no guarantees of success, but success is potentially life-changing. If in addition the testing is inadequate, and the governing organizations look the other way or are incompetent, then you have just the right conditions for rampant doping.
The proper response IMO is not to kick out managers or blame supposed "bad apple" doctors. That's a band aid fix. A legitimate and transparent OOC testing program needs to be in place. An accredited lab in the northern half of Africa or sufficient funds to fly lots of samples to Switzerland, a way to see which athletes have been tested, and how many times etc.
no doubt some truth to the economic story you are telling. There are no rich countries that are good at distance running. Any more.
But culture has a role, I think. Take sprinting in the US. You'll probably agree that US sprinting is a wretched hive of scum and villainy. But US distance running is apparently very clean. Why the difference? Same country. By your economic explanation of doping, US sprinting and distance running should be equally clean or dirty.
I'll agree that the comparison is not completely apples to apples - sprinters might get more benefit from drugs, I dunno. And sprinters in the US are 100% African American, a population with a lower income that the white people who make up almost all distance runners in the US. But not that different in income.
Another example is that Spain is completely awfully dirty and Japan is squeaky clean. Both rich, countries. Why is one do different than the other?
Culture is the only answer I can think of - it shouldn't be discounted.
Well I won't totally discount culture, but I still believe its mostly economics. If a sprinter can dope to an Usain Bolt-level of performance, which some have at least approached, then I think the financial rewards become very significant. (maybe a sprint expert can correct me on that). And there is definitely more star power attached to sprinting.
VAcoach wrote:
And if you wonder why I don't identify myself, I would like to continue to work with these athletes:)
No wondering here.
Geek Squader wrote:
Good for Kiplagat for flushing out the filth from Kenya. Do you all not see that these Mzungos are just coming to manipulate and take advantage of third world talent? This is big business.
Isaiah Kiplagat may be a thug who's extorting foreigners AND his own countrymen, but at least he's trying to clean the image of Kenyan athletics.
I don't assume AK has hard evidence, just saying it's possible they do. Volare hasn't had the positives Rosa has, so a six month ban is very hard to justify in lieu of any supporting evidence…even for a body as corrupt and petulant as AK. Wilson Kipsang's criticism of and organizing against AK could also explain AK's behavior. Still, there is the very real possibility that a failed test or tests are the reason. Spring marathon season is on. Three Volare guys are on the London start list, Kimetto, Kipsang and Geoffrey Mutai. If they all start, we'll at least know the big names are clear.
kjkdjlkjdlk wrote:
...we'll at least know the big names are clear.
We'll be hoping so anyway. Now with all this heavy clamp down stuff going on it's going to be interesting going forward to see if anyone can get near to high 2:02s and 2:03s the top guys have been regularly running over the last couple of years.
clerk,You asked above what reasons exist besides drugs, to explain the "unnatural" drop in times.First, the use of the word “unnatural” is unjustified, until we find a link between “unnatural” and the drop in times.But people are looking, and they have found other reasons: body type, growing up at altitude, and living at altitude, not to mention depth of competition. There was a recent “Born at Altitude” thread which touched on several ways that Kenyans are physically different — e.g. a study by Larsen which found skinny legs with high calves very important in improving running economy. These “Nilotic” tribes, recently moving to high altitude, but not too high, also seems to be an important factor. The “Sports Gene” provides a couple chapters on Kenya and Ethiopia, and some of the studies being done to show why these populations are different than others.You seem to address at times, two different doping standards (which is fine):1) “doping is doping”, no matter what the reason or substance2) “doping is the reason for the unnatural drop in times”Regarding the first point, this kind of tautology cannot be argued. Clearly Kenya’s recent increase in doping positives is an issue that is putting Kenyan athletes, and Athletics Kenya in the spotlight, for all the wrong reasons. Whether it be rogue foreign influences, bad local doctors, or just uneducation, there is an issue that needs to be addressed.But regarding the second point, you ask to be shown, among many other things, that EPO does not work on top athletes. Perhaps the simplest argument is the observation that EPO hasn’t helped the rest of the world beat their own pre-EPO marks in a similar “unnatural” way. Why would EPO, a globally available drug, that has been known for decades, only help such a select group of poor people living in East Africa? This even seems to me counter-intuitive, since the select group is born and raised at altitude, and might already possess some of the benefits that EPO gives to sea-level athletes.You finish your rant with a conclusion that we are left with is “that there is widespread doping … in Kenya (including the top)”. Despite your heartfelt catalog of points and counterpoints, I disagree that the term “widespread” is justified (not only because the term is vague and means different things to different people), and the link to the top looks more like an exception to the rule, rather than the rule. With the same evidence, we can also draw a much more narrow conclusion that something changed in the last few years, as shown by the recent increase in positives.
clerk wrote:
...
But, let's sum up everything at once.
...
The counterpoint that "Elite Kenyans" don't benefit from EPO has not been proven.
The counterpoint that they're doping with only minor drugs isn't actually a counterpoint; doping is doping.
...
So, we're left with a conclusion (from all of this) that there is widespread doping in Kenya. Until you can show that those witnesses, coaches, athletes, journalists are wrong, or you can show the ability of tests to prove cleanliness, or you can prove that top athletes would not benefit from EPO, or that the culture now is drastically different than the doping culture of 90's and 00's, then we are still left with the conclusion of widespread doping in Kenya (including the top).
Lack of ooc testing, remember it's only recently the first tests were carried out
Wada knows there is a massive problem in East Africa
As soon as a few tests started happening the walls have come tumbling down
Ethiopia is still the final frontier of unrestricted doping
reader of twitter wrote:
Kenyan sportswriter Katami Michelle reporting that both the Rosas and Volare (Dennis Kimetto, Wilson Kipsang, Geoffrey Mutai etc.) have been suspended 6 months pending doping investigations.
https://twitter.com/MichKatami/status/587601946460164097And London is coming right up...
She also reports Athletics Kenya president Isaiah Kiplagat is taking a leave of absence, coincidentally, and may not come back.
Oh, no!!! This is a conspiracy!!! Kenyans never cheat. And I am an idiot, because I pointed to the rampant drug abuse in East Africa 5+ years ago!
Bargor wrote:But what if almost all the examples of fast Kenyan runners from the last 20 years, on whom we based that reasoning, were doped?
What if...? LOL
ALL of them were doped. There hasn't been a clean top Kenyan runner since autumn 1995. The same applies for Moroccans, Algerians, Ethiopians and some other Africans from neighbouring countries.
agip wrote:
well I grabbed four names clerk and none of them mean much.
Cheromei was nabbed for a - wait for it - pregnancy inducing drug
Chepchumba was in 2003 - bans 12 years ago don't count for anything.
Chepkemai was nailed for an asthma drug - she was pregnant and had pneumonia and her doc prescribed a banned drug. I'll give her a pass. You won't? Really?
Tanui was in 1993 - 22 years ago - really, clerk?
Do I have to go through each name? Do you really think your citations are good ones beyond Jeptoo and Kisorio?
Be an adult here and don't just shoot from the hip in gotcha claims.
My statement stands: in the current era there have been only two top end kenyans who have tested poz (Jeptoo Kisorio) - and that is not enough evidence to infer that a large number of Kenyan A listers are dopers.
There is now but still doping deniers abound on this board.
[quote]rekrunner wrote:
clerk,
You asked above what reasons exist besides drugs, to explain the "unnatural" drop in times.
First, the use of the word “unnatural” is unjustified, until we find a link between “unnatural” and the drop in times.
But people are looking, and they have found other reasons: body type, growing up at altitude, and living at altitude, not to mention depth of competition. There was a recent “Born at Altitude” thread which touched on several ways that Kenyans are physically different — e.g. a study by Larsen which found skinny legs with high calves very important in improving running economy. These “Nilotic” tribes, recently moving to high altitude, but not too high, also seems to be an important factor. The “Sports Gene” provides a couple chapters on Kenya and Ethiopia, and some of the studies being done to show why these populations are different than others.
You seem to address at times, two different doping standards (which is fine):
1) “doping is doping”, no matter what the reason or substance
2) “doping is the reason for the unnatural drop in times”
Regarding the first point, this kind of tautology cannot be argued. Clearly Kenya’s recent increase in doping positives is an issue that is putting Kenyan athletes, and Athletics Kenya in the spotlight, for all the wrong reasons. Whether it be rogue foreign influences, bad local doctors, or just uneducation, there is an issue that needs to be addressed.
But regarding the second point, you ask to be shown, among many other things, that EPO does not work on top athletes. Perhaps the simplest argument is the observation that EPO hasn’t helped the rest of the world beat their own pre-EPO marks in a similar “unnatural” way. Why would EPO, a globally available drug, that has been known for decades, only help such a select group of poor people living in East Africa? This even seems to me counter-intuitive, since the select group is born and raised at altitude, and might already possess some of the benefits that EPO gives to sea-level athletes.
You finish your rant with a conclusion that we are left with is “that there is widespread doping … in Kenya (including the top)”. Despite your heartfelt catalog of points and counterpoints, I disagree that the term “widespread” is justified (not only because the term is vague and means different things to different people), and the link to the top looks more like an exception to the rule, rather than the rule. With the same evidence, we can also draw a much more narrow conclusion that something changed in the last few years, as shown by the recent increase in positives.
—-----—-------------------
And here is the prime denier of doping despite 70+ more East Africans busted for doping since this podt
There are 2 main reasons the rest of the world is not running faster than before.
1They have had proper testing for a long time.
2 They actually believed that the East Africans were that much better and gave up.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
And here is the prime denier of doping despite 70+ more East Africans busted for doping since this podt
There are 2 main reasons the rest of the world is not running faster than before.
1They have had proper testing for a long time.
2 They actually believed that the East Africans were that much better and gave up.
Sure, why not dig up a 5 year old thread?
I don't deny significant prevalence of doping. In fact as you can see above, I said that 5 years ago Kenya has an issue that need to be addressed.
70+ might sound like a lot, for fans from countries with few athletes. I think would be more meaningful to express this as a percentage.
Regarding your 2 reasons, I appreciate the effort to guess reasons:
1) might be convincing except that in the '90s - there was no test for any athlete in any country for EPO or for blood transfusions, and there was no WADA (or USADA), and cycling showed us that athletes from all countries doped with impunity.
2) maybe this belief is justified. Part of winning is self-confidence -- to win you need a strong body and a strong mind, not so easily intimidated.