Dominguez detained in doping investigation

To ventolin,

What are you an expert in? Statistics? Coaching? Physiology? Medicine? Drivel? I have the impression you are an avid "arm-chair quarterback" track fan, armed with a scientific calculator, and a high opinion of yourself.

Does it make you feel better if you call people idiots and morons? Perhaps you rely too much on your statistical projections. Given the number of variables that can affect every performance, it's amazing the apparent level of certainty you claim with your "calculated estimates". When you claim that Mourhit can run 26'40", when he only ever ran 26'52" can you statistically quantify your certainty? For example, what is the assumed confidence interval? Do you have data samples with an assumed data distribution, and standard deviations? Do we know why Tergat ran so slow? After all, he was a 26:28 runner, contrary to Mourhit. 24 seconds seems like a lot at that level. That's like what, 180 meters. Running 26:40 is still 90 meters away -- from Tergat, who is 40 meters behind Geb, and 80 meters behind Bekele.

To everyone else,

I think what is missing here is a comprehensive study which shows the magnitudes of effects of all of the different performance enhancing substances and techniques. Such a study should attempt to resolve:

- Which percentage of athletes respond negatively; not at all; and positively to the various "support programs"

- If certain class of athletes (e.g. africans born and raised at high altitude) are indifferent to certain enhancements

- What is the correlation of performance enhancement compared to level of performance

Given the ethical nature of such a study, it's hard to imagine it ever being performed. Most of the data on "external" performance enhancement is kept secret. It's ironic to see all those who want Renato to dig up published journals to support his personal observations, when the fact is, published journals haven't produced any data for performance enhancing substances and procedures, sufficient to draw any general conclusions.

Clearly, if we lack any data points at all for elite athletes, all the pseudo-conclusions here are really just a brown-tinged untested hypotheses.

Can statistical projections derived from a pool of sub-elite athletes be interpolated to TOP athletes? This is an unproven hypothesis.

Who here has any direct experience working/coaching with all levels of athletes, including the top elite athletes?

Who here, for example, has collected any blood samples from TOP athletes, or collected any other data, besides performance times?

rekrunner wrote:

To ventolin,

What are you an expert in? Statistics? Coaching? Physiology? Medicine? Drivel? I have the impression you are an avid "arm-chair quarterback" track fan, armed with a scientific calculator, and a high opinion of yourself.

Does it make you feel better if you call people idiots and morons?

Ventolin is from Kenya, and I guess it all has to do with feelings of inferiority towards white men.

To Renato Canova:

Can you explain why track and field is so different from other sports.

We have seen what blood doping can do in cycling with Armstrong, Basso, Ullrich, Indurain, Landis, Riis, Mayo, Rasmussen, Contador. These guys dont claim that doping does only have a small effect.

The same we can see in cross country skiing with Myllälä, Kirviesniemi, Mylegg, Egorova, Lazutina, Tchepalova.

All this people had a big advantage from blood doping.

I would very much like to hear your explanation of why track running is so much difference.

The biochemistry of East Africans is very different from that of westerners...EPO will actually be counterproductive.

I never said blood doping doesn't work. I said doesn't work WITH SOME SPECIFIC TALENTED ATHLETES, that have some genetic adaptation to the difficulties of living in high altitude. And all the athletes of endurance you name (cyclists and cross country skiers) are not part of this category.

And there is also a very high different between the specificism of these different sports.

In cycling, for example, we cant see the same characteristics of running. We have cases (for example the Belgian Patrick Sercu, several time World Champion of full sprint, and later one of the best cyclists also in very long distances, or Mario Cipollini, Olympic Champion on track in 4 km pursue for teams, and after very strong also when the distances were 300 km almost) of sprinters becoming very strong in endurance, because the real level of endurance we need is completely different.

When in a running competition athletes use an almost even effort, and it's not possible, at the speed of the race, to lower the level of lactate, during a competition of cycling there are long periods at very low level of effort, alternated to periods of lactic efforts, able to produce very high lactate that can be recovered, later, during the same competition. So, cycling is more similar an interval-training that a running competition, and the most important attitudes are the ability in producing a lot of lactate (lactic power) and to recover quickly (lactic tolerance). Under this point of view, also if the aerobic base is in any case important, a cyclist is similar to a specialist of 800/1500m, more than to a specialist of long distances.

And don't forget that the real difference is the ability to push a gear more hard, using the same frequency. This is possible increasing the muscular power, that always can pay in cycling, but not always in running.

About ski crossers, the technical ability is too much important : we have specialists going after 15 km in a competition of 30 km, at the same speed of their 15k competition, when the situation of the snow is the same, and the technique is very good.

So, in any case, there are too many differences between sport and sport. If we want to involve swimming, too, we can have other data again.

And don't forget that every sport has a specific catchment area, involving different types of people and different morphology : in cycling, swimming and ski-crossing there are no Africans, and I fear that, in few years, in running there are no more Europeans.

I thank you for explaining, in a good English (that I am not able to use), why it's not possible to speak with Ventolin, also when some times he can have reason. Because the gratouitousness of offenses, apart of the value of the arguments, go to disqualify the person using this system, that never can give any support in building something or explaining something, also when can have reason. Very simply, who has this behavior, is not a social person.

Going to one fact : during the WCCCh 2000, the first time Mouhrit defeated Tergat (that after that defeat, never was interested in competing again in WCCCh), till last 300m the leader was a young athlete I coached (Wilberforce Talel) that NEVER was able running under 27'36"48 during the season, and only 200m before, the leader was Abraham Cherono, brother of the future Shaheen, when is value was about 28' in 10 km. And, in 2001, second was Sergey Lebid... So, all the calculations using mathematics of Ventolin are totally bullshits, because the hypothesis is wrong : that the real value of the athletes can be ALWAYS the same, that all the competitions can have the same interest for the athletes, that all the conditions of the competitions are the same. One thing is a theorical discussion, other thing is the reality.

And is very clear that Ventolin is a mental sick person, using numbers (caught from a World that he doesn't know) for finding the way to have some orgasm, because probably is the only system he knows for satisfy his ego.

How do you know blood doping doesn't work for these talented people? Unless someone has tested this in a well-designed experiment, this is just another unfounded claim of yours.

you are an idiot

tergat said he was in shape of his life in '00 & even had sprinting speed

that means by sydney he musta been in close to 26'20 shape, perhaps even faster

the assertion he was in similar shape to 27'30 guys in that x-country race is nonsense - he was coming off his best training & even if not in sydney shape yet, he musta been good for at least 26'40 just off his base training & at least 7'30 in shorter races

for him to be crushed by a guy in such a race means mourhit had to be in fantastic shape - at least < 7'30 for speed & at least 26'40 in a sustained pace race

as for scientific "experience" - i have no interest in making a career change to coaching for "piss-ant" money - if it offers $160k++ a year, i'd consider giving up my dayjob, which does pay that & no travel expenses

you are a guy with no scientific qualifications except a shit degree in some sort of physical education - you are no physiologist let alone an MD & it shows shows with your nonsense grasp of basic physiology/haematology/etc

as for track experience - i have watched every big meet on satellite for 25y+ ( except some mid-'90s hengelos ) & before that on normal tv back to early '70s

while you were were coaching 13'20/27'30 kenyans in some shithole in the mountains in the '90s, i was watching the 12'45/26'30 races on tv & i certainly don't need some physical ed guy telling me what is fast or what is the quality of a guy

you see kiptanui storm to 7'28wr in '92 ?

you see him run 13'01 off a pedestrian 3k just after, when he looked capable of at least 12'55 & maybe even close to 12'50 ?

you see ben koech run 1'43.1 when he looked like a talent capable of 1'42-flat ?

i've seen all the top guys in all their top races ( except some hengelos of geb in '90s ) & i'd reckon helluva lot more than a 3rd rate phys ed guy who spends most of his time holed up 5,000' in some shithole

Renato speaks the truth, and his arguments carry weight.

With regard to Bezabeh, he was a victim in this whole case. Really, he did not know that he might have done something illegal with the blood doping. He now faces a two year ban and one prays that he will return. He is a good athlete, and will show, that he can run fast, clean.

His background in Spain is very sad, in the sense that many people took advantage of him, when he first moved there as an undocumented alien a few years ago. He had tried to follow his brother (Sisay) to Australia, but could not get in (OZ has very strict immigration rules of late).

Bezabeh only has a primary education and is naive in many ways. He can be easily manipulated. In fact, one can argue that he should be let off the hook, because he had not yet done anything illegal...there was just the intent to use transfusions, which he had been told by his Spanish minders were completely legal. Bezabeh is just trying to put food on the table. Anyone who has ever met him will know that. Even in his native language, Amharic, he cannot write very much. Bezabeh is no villain....

Dominguez, one suspects, will be vindicated because there is nothing to show that she doped. She has too much at stake to try that. The poor lady is pregnant now, and her state of health should not be put into jeopardy.

The wheels of justice will turn, and let them turn with justice and comprehension of extenuating circumstances, especially for Bezabeh, the semi literate victim of all of this.

Ghost in Saudi,

www.kfupm.edu.sa

, apply today

If the brojo´s had any kind of decency they would throw this lunatic out from LR, but I don´t expect those rednecks

to behave any more civilized than this monkey.

probably seen more top quality races than you will in a lifetime & ivy league MD qualification

i'm not interested in $50k/year piss-ant coaching, when dayjob pays x3+ that amount

for a start, i saw that race, which you obviously didn't

mourhit was running in his home meet of brussels & was huge crowd favorite & he wanted euro record & <<27'00

he made the pace most of latter 1/2 of race & just got outsprinted by kamathi

iirc correctly, most of hard running was in 2nd 5k

i have no doubt with faster pacing that day he wouda gone at least 26'40 based on fact he ran 26'52 just off a hard 2nd 1/2 & wouda dropped kamathi somewhere before 9k

he was worth hugely better than 26'52

without actual splits, you go on "experience" & i've checked the all-time list - i've just realised, i've seen EVERY < 26'55 race on it, except geb's 26'43 in hengelo

that is experience & i am damn sure what level of talent that guy had

mourhit looked a guy who got better with distance

a 12km x-country race is more like 13k on a track & he was in all likelihood even a better over-distance runner than tergat, despite tergat eventually breaking 1/2M wr

i doubt there woud have been much difference at all between them in that early season if they had run a track 10k

To everyone else,

if you had a clue about science, you woud know no such study woud ever get past the ethics committee if done in a western country

we go on pharmacological basis that doping in form of epo works & only cases where it won't are if you get a debilitating side-effect to it or you have some sort of myelodysplasia making marrow unresponsive to epo, which is highly unlikely in elite athletes who are already running damn fast before epo use

there are some anecdotal reports in literature of how much epo helps

err...

your 1st sentence answered your own question

untested, but number of epo cases & drastic improvements with it show that the hypothesis is far from wrong

eh ?

ramzi winning lots of gold not an elite performer & looking in 3'28 shape in peking???

kaouch running 3'30 on dope ?

i'd imagine plenty have, but they won't be analysing samples from admitted dopers to satisfy someone's scientific curiousity about doping on biochemical/haematological parameters

ghost wrote:

With regard to Bezabeh, he was a victim in this whole case. Really, he did not know that he might have done something illegal with the blood doping. He now faces a two year ban and one prays that he will return. He is a good athlete, and will show, that he can run fast, clean.

Any other doper gets thrown under the bus, this guy gets a pass because he's an Ethiopian.

I certainly won't be praying that he returns. He deserves everything he gets. Just like Fernandez and Dominguez.

I feel sorry for people like Mo Farah who have missed out on golds because of people like this.

Sprint Geezer wrote:

That was of course me.

I agree with everything that Sprint Geezer wrote in response to Mats.

I find it funny that he is also part of the "how do we best deal with Uncle B" squad! (I had a run in with Uncle B over the last couple of days on the Marion Jones thread.)

ghost wrote:

The wheels of justice will turn, and let them turn with justice and comprehension of extenuating circumstances, especially for Bezabeh, the semi literate victim of all of this.

Ghost in Saudi,

http://www.kfupm.edu.sa

, apply today

Bezabeh might well have been a victim I agree. It is just about possible that he didn't know that transfusions were in breach of the rules.

Everyone who competes in athletics in a Spanish vest should know the rules, to the extent that they don't the governing body is culpable and heads should roll.

It is unlikely that he has never used blood transfusion before and I hope that he is honest in his testimony. I hope that he is then given the same sanction that all athletes who breach this rule are given, even though I sympathise with him for his particular background.

The sanction isn't just a punishment for him. It is also meant to be a deterrent to others. As the French would say, we need to "encourager les autres".

Ghost,

Have you ever seen a doper that you won't make excuses for? Really. You excuse doping by everybody. It's pathetic.

you know what threads like this one are? it's a fight club. Frustrated at work and play? Come on lrc and call an actual running professional a moron. Call a guy pretty good at stats an idiot. Do it with passion, because well it is good to feel something.

Dear Ventolin, I'm very happy you saw on TV the most part of competition where my athletes were protagonist. So, for example, in WCCCh 2000, when I had the no. 5 (Talel) arriving 4" behind Tergat, the no. 11 (Abraham Cherono) arriving 11 after pacing FOR Tergat according to the tactical Kenyan choices, and, in other races, the bronze medal of Paul Kosgei in short distance, the Junior Champion (Robert Kipchumba) and the no. 3 (John Korir), no. 4 (Philemon Kemei) and no. 5 (Martin Sulle) in the Junior race, and of course I was not in front of the TV, but directly in Vilamoura, you can decide, in virtue of your magic cristall ball, the level of absolute shape of everybody, having for example referement with what happened in Sydney, exactly 190 days later (from 19th of March till 25th of September).

I need to congratulate with you, because nobody else in the World can have so clear vision of the past, and, I think, of the future.

Since we have a bad period of economic crisis in the most part of the World, why you don't go into politics, for solving the problems of the World (very easy for you, using your mathematic formula), using your unbelievable knowledge (and modesty) for the common welfare ?

I'm sorry you are not Italian, otherwise you could be a good collaborator of Berlusconi...

My pleasure. It just pains me to see, that you talk about some narrow thing (the potential effectiveness of blood doping on certain highly trained African athletes born and raised at altitude), and yet the emotional responses come back as if you spoke of all athletes, at all altitudes, and all PEDs.

Renato Canova wrote:

I thank you for explaining, in a good English (that I am not able to use), why it's not possible to speak with Ventolin, also when some times he can have reason.

You got the French wrong - it should read "decourager les autres" as "encourager" would spur athletes to dope.

No, I do not support all dopers....but someone like Bezabeh was a victim of the system, in Spain, as he had been pounced on by a number of 'coaches' and agents who saw a good way to make money off of him. He is rather a victim of his circumstances. He did not deliberately cheat, and that can be gleaned from the police transcript, in which he asked his coach innocently, whether he could still 'run in the Euro Champs?' - as he sincerely did not realize that by pumping previously extracted blood would confer any advantage that other athletes did not already have. All the Spanish know this, and that is why he is not a real, calculating, doper. He is a victim of circumstances.

When you come from an impoverished background like the one Bezabeh came from (he had nothing in Ethiopia), you do what you have to do, and he is primarily interested in providing for his new family. His wife recently got her Schengen visa, and everything was looking up. A new apartment in Madrid and other benefits were starting to give Bezabeh the stability he needs.

No one in Spain has a bad thing to say about this simple Ethiopian. Running is economic necessity. He is not in it for the glory. He has no history of doping prior to this, and has been tested in and out of competition. Europe is heavily monitored now. It is nigh impossible to get away with it.....everyone knows where you are most of the time. Yes, he goes to Ethiopia for training periods, but that does not make him guilty.

We will see what happens, but one suspects the courts will be sympathetic. The law still applies, but the Judge will not apply full force to this. His lawyers are looking for extenuating circumstances which could let him off.

Ghost in Saudi. wwww.kfupm.edu.sa, apply today.